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Stubborn Children
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:09 am
Does anyone have advice on dealing with stubborn children?

Before anyone breaks out the "it will serve them well in life," having seen my sister's brand of stubbornness hold her back in life. Socially (including with the family), education, financially etc. I don't want my daughter to live a life like that.

I want to teach her that it's ok to be stubborn sometimes, but it's also ok to listen, learn and watch from others.

She's 4, not my first and much more stubborn than most of the 4 year olds that I've ever met. It's usually to her detriment - she doesn't get what she wants, she loses out on things she does want or experiences she wants to have. It also delays everyone else and negatively impacts her siblings.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:14 am
Can you give us an example or two? Sometimes that helps in understanding exactly the kind of behaviors involved.
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:44 am
look I have dealt with an ex dh that was as stubborn as can be. he didnt recognize it. he even used to blame me for his problems. as she grows older she needs to learn she has this in her personality. I can t tell you how to deal with it. but it can cause a lot of heartache to the pp around them. my ex family is afflicted with it. so I can tell you it can get severly ugly. ok he has other issues along with it. but be careful to teach her when shes older that. others dont have to suffer from it. it brings noone good. can it be a blessing? for sure. but it has to be channelled in the right way. please be patient with her. this is part of her character of how hashem created her. with a mother like you who will guide her she will blossom. but if you let it go with out doing anything it wont get better it will intensify.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:45 am
A small example:

We were going out for a family hike (which she was very excited about). Everyone had to use the bathroom before we left. She went last (her choice), but refused to wipe or wash her hands. Needless to say, we weren't leaving until that was done. We explained to her that we wouldn't leave without her, but we couldn't leave until she did that. A 20 minute tantrum ensued, until she finally did. She had absolutely no reason for not wiping or washing her hands (we tried asking her about that first - was she in pain, was something bothering her, could she reach everything etc).
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:47 am
amother wrote:
look I have dealt with an ex dh that was as stubborn as can be. he didnt recognize it. he even used to blame me for his problems. as she grows older she needs to learn she has this in her personality. I can t tell you how to deal with it. but it can cause a lot of heartache to the pp around them. my ex family is afflicted with it. so I can tell you it can get severly ugly. ok he has other issues along with it. but be careful to teach her when shes older that. others dont have to suffer from it. it brings noone good. can it be a blessing? for sure. but it has to be channelled in the right way. please be patient with her. this is part of her character of how hashem created her. with a mother like you who will guide her she will blossom. but if you let it go with out doing anything it wont get better it will intensify.


My fear is that she will be like my sister. My mother has seen her behavior and has said that while more mild than my sister's, it definitely is reminiscent of it. My mother tried so many ways to help her, and I'm afraid that I am going to fail her Crying She is so sweet sometimes and so stupidly stubborn other times.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:53 am
amother wrote:
A small example:

We were going out for a family hike (which she was very excited about). Everyone had to use the bathroom before we left. She went last (her choice), but refused to wipe or wash her hands. Needless to say, we weren't leaving until that was done. We explained to her that we wouldn't leave without her, but we couldn't leave until she did that. A 20 minute tantrum ensued, until she finally did. She had absolutely no reason for not wiping or washing her hands (we tried asking her about that first - was she in pain, was something bothering her, could she reach everything etc).

Was she trying to save time, so she could zip in and out and get going that much faster? I'm willing to bet there was some kind of thought process there but at 4 she may still not be able to identify it to herself, much less explain it to you.

Sometimes stubbornness is a personality trait but sometimes it is a cognitive function - inflexibility - which can be coached and improved or sometimes it can be a mental health issue... Do you have other examples?
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 12:04 pm
Sometimes stubbornness is a personality trait but sometimes it is a cognitive function - inflexibility - which can be coached and improved or sometimes it can be a mental health issue... Do you have other examples?


can you say that when its a character trait it means its a mental health issue? how to differentiate when its mental health and when its inflexibility?
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 12:06 pm
A stubborn child is an inflexible child. She is lacking the cognitive skills to shift, change gears, and be flexible. This is an executive function that you can teach her. The Explosive Child is an excellent book with very good background so you can understand her better, and give you skills to help her learn how to become more flexible. Just know that it can take years, but if you use this approach consistently there is a lot of hope for your daughter.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 12:19 pm
First of all, try to let go of the fears that she will be like your sister. One of my DD's recently heard a saying that I love: "Worry is praying for what you don't want to happen."

I'm not saying to naively ignore the situation or even that certain characteristics don't have a genetic component. Just that your DD is a different individual and her situation will be her own. You're aware and willing to be proactive, and that's where your energy will do the most good.

So back to your DD:

IM(limited)E, stubbornness is typically a result of a child's inability to articulate a fear or problem; a generalized response to feeling that various needs aren't being met; or a need for more control and autonomy that is typical or even appropriate based on the chronological age.

I would probably try to categorize the stubborn responses to see what categories they fall into. Sometimes it will be very obvious: a child who is stubborn about bathroom routines in a variety of settings may have an underlying fear. A child who reacts stubbornly whenever you are in a hurry and "order" her to do things may have a need for more control.

The thing to remember is that, for most people, stubbornness is really a defense mechanism. It's a way of feeling in control when the world seems uncontrollable in some way. Which, of course, is why the tougher we get, the more the stubborn person digs in his/her heels. Sticking to your guns no matter what is a way of building a fortress around yourself.

If you can detect even a minor trend in the types of situations that make your DD stubborn, you can gently help her feel more secure by simply discussing in advance what might happen; making a game of it; talking about it afterward. Coach her to think about what she's feeling when she starts to get stubborn.

And, of course, make sure that she gets adequate positive attention so that stubborn outbursts aren't her primary way of getting your attention. I have a feeling this isn't the case, though!

For better or worse, moms are everyone's primary therapist, and you anything you do to help your DD feel better about herself and safer in her surroundings will probably make her less stubborn. It's just hard to remember that stubbornness is almost never what it seems.

Finally, don't hesitate to enroll her in social skills groups, etc., as she gets older. As other posters have mentioned, even mild stubbornness can be a social impediment. Sometimes people don't realize just how maladadaptive their behavior is until entire families are drawn into the drama.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 12:52 pm
sourstix wrote:
how to differentiate when its mental health and when its inflexibility?

There are professionals, such as neuropsychologists for example, who are trained to do just that and provide a differential diagnosis using a variety of evaluative instruments. A layperson cannot and should not do this on their own.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 12:54 pm
sourstix wrote:
can you say that when its a character trait it means its a mental health issue?

I definitely didn't say that a stubborn character means a mental health issue. You misunderstood my post.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:01 pm
Fox wrote:
I would probably try to categorize the stubborn responses to see what categories they fall into.

A pp recommended Greene's The Explosive Child and this is a cornerstone of his approach. He calls it identifying lagging skills and unsolved problems and it involves exactly what Fox suggests. It's kind of like keeping a food journal to identify a food allergen. You want to look for patterns that you can understand in the bigger picture, anticipate and plan for in advance. There's lots more in his book in addition to this and it is definitely worth a read.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:07 pm
[quote="5*Mom"]I definitely didn't say that a stubborn character means a mental health issue. You misunderstood my post.[/quote]

sorry I was just trying to clarify. I understand that it can becaome a mental health issue if not treated properly. is that safe to say?
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:09 pm
sourstix wrote:
sorry I was just trying to clarify. I understand that it can becaome a mental health issue if not treated properly. is that safe to say?

No. If the root cause is not a mental health issue, it will not become a mental health issue. It will become a social issue, a quality of life issue, a relationship issue, but difficult character traits with no mental health basis will not become mental health issues.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:10 pm
I know from my experinece with dealing with super stubborn pp is. that they see their way and noone elses way. its my way or the highway. that I mean stubborn. they do not give in no matter what. even if it means they lose out.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:15 pm
[quote="5*Mom"]Was she trying to save time, so she could zip in and out and get going that much faster? I'm willing to bet there was some kind of thought process there but at 4 she may still not be able to identify it to herself, much less explain it to you.

Sometimes stubbornness is a personality trait but sometimes it is a cognitive function - inflexibility - which can be coached and improved or sometimes it can be a mental health issue... Do you have other examples?[/quote]


you mention it in your post it can be a mental health issue. so can you explain that?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:15 pm
amother wrote:
A stubborn child is an inflexible child. She is lacking the cognitive skills to shift, change gears, and be flexible. This is an executive function that you can teach her. The Explosive Child is an excellent book with very good background so you can understand her better, and give you skills to help her learn how to become more flexible. Just know that it can take years, but if you use this approach consistently there is a lot of hope for your daughter.


This. This. This.

I have a child like this, and want to tell you that at 4 I think the stubbornness peaked - I remember that being a hard time. At 7 1/2 she's calmed down a bit and I can reason with her more. I can also prepare her in advance with steps we are going to take so that she is more easily able to go thru the program so to speak. There is hope.

My child physically and personally resembles a relative of mine whom I do not associate with so positively, but SHE IS NOT THAT PERSON at all. She has a whole different set of experiences and relationships and strengths. (She has me as her mother Wink). She is someone totally different, despite sharing a little bit of genetic makeup with someone else.

Try not to project your sister's issues onto your child. SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER. It's not fair to raise her with your sister held up as a sort of negative pedestal, like - if we don't do XYZ she might become like sister. FORGET ABOUT YOUR SISTER and focus only on what your child needs. You will have much more success with this approach.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:18 pm
sourstix wrote:
I know from my experinece with dealing with super stubborn pp is. that they see their way and noone elses way. its my way or the highway. that I mean stubborn. they do not give in no matter what. even if it means they lose out.

You are describing a behavior, not identifying the source of the behavior. 2 stubborn people may act the same but for entirely different reasons.

Stubbornness is not a disease. It isn't even always negative.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:25 pm
amother wrote:
A stubborn child is an inflexible child. She is lacking the cognitive skills to shift, change gears, and be flexible. This is an executive function that you can teach her. The Explosive Child is an excellent book with very good background so you can understand her better, and give you skills to help her learn how to become more flexible. Just know that it can take years, but if you use this approach consistently there is a lot of hope for your daughter.


I'm very familiar with the explosive child, and have successfully used the method with one of my older kids. The approach doesn't seem to work with her, though maybe I have to dig a little deeper to get it to work. Thank you for your recommendation.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:27 pm
Chayalle wrote:
This. This. This.

I have a child like this, and want to tell you that at 4 I think the stubbornness peaked - I remember that being a hard time. At 7 1/2 she's calmed down a bit and I can reason with her more. I can also prepare her in advance with steps we are going to take so that she is more easily able to go thru the program so to speak. There is hope.

My child physically and personally resembles a relative of mine whom I do not associate with so positively, but SHE IS NOT THAT PERSON at all. She has a whole different set of experiences and relationships and strengths. (She has me as her mother Wink). She is someone totally different, despite sharing a little bit of genetic makeup with someone else.

Try not to project your sister's issues onto your child. SHE IS NOT YOUR SISTER. It's not fair to raise her with your sister held up as a sort of negative pedestal, like - if we don't do XYZ she might become like sister. FORGET ABOUT YOUR SISTER and focus only on what your child needs. You will have much more success with this approach.


Thank you for your chizzuk.

I know she's not my sister. I basically have some form of PTSD from growing up with her - not literally PTSD, but I'm definitely triggered by similar behaviors, which I'm sure makes my reaction to the problem worse than what a regular person would be.

I try to remind myself regularly that DD isn't my sister, and it's hard to internalize. I will definitely work on that.
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