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Stubborn Children
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:29 pm
Fox wrote:
First of all, try to let go of the fears that she will be like your sister. One of my DD's recently heard a saying that I love: "Worry is praying for what you don't want to happen."

I'm not saying to naively ignore the situation or even that certain characteristics don't have a genetic component. Just that your DD is a different individual and her situation will be her own. You're aware and willing to be proactive, and that's where your energy will do the most good.

So back to your DD:

IM(limited)E, stubbornness is typically a result of a child's inability to articulate a fear or problem; a generalized response to feeling that various needs aren't being met; or a need for more control and autonomy that is typical or even appropriate based on the chronological age.

I would probably try to categorize the stubborn responses to see what categories they fall into. Sometimes it will be very obvious: a child who is stubborn about bathroom routines in a variety of settings may have an underlying fear. A child who reacts stubbornly whenever you are in a hurry and "order" her to do things may have a need for more control.

The thing to remember is that, for most people, stubbornness is really a defense mechanism. It's a way of feeling in control when the world seems uncontrollable in some way. Which, of course, is why the tougher we get, the more the stubborn person digs in his/her heels. Sticking to your guns no matter what is a way of building a fortress around yourself.

If you can detect even a minor trend in the types of situations that make your DD stubborn, you can gently help her feel more secure by simply discussing in advance what might happen; making a game of it; talking about it afterward. Coach her to think about what she's feeling when she starts to get stubborn.

And, of course, make sure that she gets adequate positive attention so that stubborn outbursts aren't her primary way of getting your attention. I have a feeling this isn't the case, though!

For better or worse, moms are everyone's primary therapist, and you anything you do to help your DD feel better about herself and safer in her surroundings will probably make her less stubborn. It's just hard to remember that stubbornness is almost never what it seems.

Finally, don't hesitate to enroll her in social skills groups, etc., as she gets older. As other posters have mentioned, even mild stubbornness can be a social impediment. Sometimes people don't realize just how maladadaptive their behavior is until entire families are drawn into the drama.


Thank you for all of this. I've been looking for specific triggers and haven't been able to identify one yet.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:37 pm
Here's another example:

I was picking DD up from school one day and as she ran towards me she bumped into another child and knocked him down. No one was seriously injured, but I asked her to apologize (nothing fancy, "I'm sorry" works well).

She refused and threw the biggest tantrum ever. We stayed there over an hour until she agreed to make him a picture at home to bring in the following day to show that she was sorry. Throughout the hour, we tried talking about what the problem was, why she was reluctant, ways she could show him she was sorry, asked her to help figure it out...etc etc etc.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:50 pm
My daughter struggles with this - call it stubbornness, call it inflexibility, personally I call it "difficulty with transitions." There is also a "resistance to blind acceptance of authority" aspect, the child wants to understand and make her own choices instead of being told to do something that seems random, unreasonable and stupid to them.

I would see huge tantrums when the family was in a rush, or at transitional times like leaving to school or coming home from school. She's nearly 6 now and while she still falls apart sometimes it doesn't happen as often and she snaps out of it faster.

What I have successfully done is teach her how to read a digital clock, use timers and give her 15 minute, 10 minute, 5 minute and 1 minute reminders. I set her up with some routines that make the day go more easily (laying out her clothes the night before.) I'm clear about the choices she has and the natural consequences.

A natural consequence of the toilet scenario you described is that next time she can only choose to go first or second, she can't choose to go last.

I try really hard not to rush her when I'm feeling rushed, because it just never helps. and I try to give her as much space and freedom as possible to make her own choices as applicable. For example "you can play now but you won't have time for a story in bed or you can go to bed earlier and get an extra story."

Will be checking back to this thread for more ideas and suggestions on how to manage kids like this by prevention rather than crisis response.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:50 pm
amother wrote:
Here's another example:

I was picking DD up from school one day and as she ran towards me she bumped into another child and knocked him down. No one was seriously injured, but I asked her to apologize (nothing fancy, "I'm sorry" works well).

She refused and threw the biggest tantrum ever. We stayed there over an hour until she agreed to make him a picture at home to bring in the following day to show that she was sorry. Throughout the hour, we tried talking about what the problem was, why she was reluctant, ways she could show him she was sorry, asked her to help figure it out...etc etc etc.

If you look at it from a slightly different angle, couldn't one just as easily say you were the stubborn one? After all, you stayed there for an hour and refused to go home until your daughter agreed to "show that she was sorry."

It was an accident. It is humiliating to be forced into issuing an apology and at 4 years old, you could just as easily have apologized on behalf of your daughter ("Rivky is so sorry she bumped into you by mistake. Are you okay?") and moved on. From this example, it sounds like at this point you might just be feeding into each other.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 1:55 pm
amother wrote:
Here's another example:

I was picking DD up from school one day and as she ran towards me she bumped into another child and knocked him down. No one was seriously injured, but I asked her to apologize (nothing fancy, "I'm sorry" works well).

She refused and threw the biggest tantrum ever. We stayed there over an hour until she agreed to make him a picture at home to bring in the following day to show that she was sorry. Throughout the hour, we tried talking about what the problem was, why she was reluctant, ways she could show him she was sorry, asked her to help figure it out...etc etc etc.


Saying sorry is a tough one here too. Haven't figured out why yet, though I know I was the same way as a child. What we're doing so far, with some measure of success, is practicing saying "I'm sorry" in play and pretend situations that are less intensely charged with less pressure for it to happen "right now."

Although, I wouldn't recommend to deviate an hour from your routine to devote to a tantrum. Tantrums should be ignored and the issue should be dealt with later when the child is rational. Never make it into a you vs child power struggle. Stop and think if you're being unreasonably stubborn too. Your child was hungry, tired, etc - that wasn't the time to deal with the problem.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:16 pm
5*Mom wrote:
If you look at it from a slightly different angle, couldn't one just as easily say you were the stubborn one? After all, you stayed there for an hour and refused to go home until your daughter agreed to "show that she was sorry."

It was an accident. It is humiliating to be forced into issuing an apology and at 4 years old, you could just as easily have apologized on behalf of your daughter ("Rivky is so sorry she bumped into you by mistake. Are you okay?") and moved on. From this example, it sounds like at this point you might just be feeding into each other.


If this were the only time she didn't want to do something, I would have dropped it in a heartbeat. I was trying to work with her to understand why it was a problem so that we could move forward.

As to apologizing for her, I tried that, but she threw an absolute fit when I was trying to get the words out that calming her down was more important.

I'm sure I do play a big part in this. I would love to stop that without allowing her to just "get her way" when there are plenty of times "her way" is absolutely unacceptable (like not washing hands after going to the bathroom).
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amother
Denim


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:17 pm
amother wrote:
Saying sorry is a tough one here too. Haven't figured out why yet, though I know I was the same way as a child. What we're doing so far, with some measure of success, is practicing saying "I'm sorry" in play and pretend situations that are less intensely charged with less pressure for it to happen "right now."

Although, I wouldn't recommend to deviate an hour from your routine to devote to a tantrum. Tantrums should be ignored and the issue should be dealt with later when the child is rational. Never make it into a you vs child power struggle. Stop and think if you're being unreasonably stubborn too. Your child was hungry, tired, etc - that wasn't the time to deal with the problem.


She doesn't always have a problem saying I'm sorry, which is why I was shocked this escalated. I didn't want to leave because that's what she wanted - she wanted to get out of the situation as fast as she could. Although, this wasn't a case when she was tired or hungry.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:22 pm
amother wrote:
I didn't want to leave because that's what she wanted - she wanted to get out of the situation as fast as she could.

This approach sounds problematic to me. It does sound like you might be the one creating the conflict between you. You need to learn to worth *with* your child, not *against* her. And please do remember that she is 4. 4 is very, very little.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:28 pm
amother wrote:
She doesn't always have a problem saying I'm sorry, which is why I was shocked this escalated. I didn't want to leave because that's what she wanted - she wanted to get out of the situation as fast as she could. Although, this wasn't a case when she was tired or hungry.


I think kids are universally tired, hungry and in need of comfort when they finish school. It's the same way an adult feels after a long day at the office. Not the right time for chinuch because it's not behavior they would display if they weren't stressed.
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:31 pm
amother wrote:
I'm sure I do play a big part in this. I would love to stop that without allowing her to just "get her way" when there are plenty of times "her way" is absolutely unacceptable (like not washing hands after going to the bathroom).

It sounds more and more like The Explosive Child can help you here, with deciding what to prioritize and what to put on hold *for now* and learning collaborative problem solving skills so you both can work together on this to get both your needs met. There's a lot in that book.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:49 pm
I am really shocked that you put a 4 yr old through something like this. she made a mistake and you stood there for an hour? to make her apologize? shes 4 for goodness sake! just move on.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 2:59 pm
There's also the concept of "adam nifal k'fi peulosav" - a person gets influenced by his actions. That is to say, the more you get into power struggles with your DD (if she's ANYTHING like mine) the more you are actually teaching her to be stuck in her need for power and control.

I avoid power struggles with DD and find alternative solutions, because otherwise I would actually be feeding into her stubborn nature, leading her to learn to be more stubborn in the future.

For example, insisting my DD apologize in the moment would only lead her to refuse to apologize, and moreover, it reinforces the concept of standing her ground (for no good reason) in her brain - something I don't want her to practice and internalize more. I would find it far more productive to move on (apologize for her as another poster suggested) and then discuss this later on (with talking, role playing, etc....) when she's not in a defensive mood - have her come up with a solution to appease the other party, and discuss the concept that we apologize to someone even if we hurt them by mistake not on purpose (which, BTW my DD had a very hard time with at that age - why on earth should I apologize to someone if I hurt them by mistake? In her mind that was not the same as deliberately hurting someone, and she had a hard time with the concept of taking responsibility if she had not been deliberate. And at the same time, she also used to have a hard time accepting that when someone else hurt her it might have been a mistake - some how when she was the victim she always saw it as intentional on the other person's part...something we've worked on, role played, etc...to get the concept across....)
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 3:00 pm
Some additional ideas that can help, some based on the Explosive Child book and my experiences:
1. Use a lot of language around the idea of being flexible. Really highlight, model it, and talk about it so your child has a very strong sense of what being flexible means. For example, talk about when you are being flexible or someone else is being flexible. "I really wanted the pizza, but they didnt have it in the store, so I was flexible and ordered fries instead.". " look, shaindy is playing with blocks and even though she doesnt want to share, she is being flexible and letting moishy join in. Wow, she is so flexible!". "Even though it is bedtime, I am going to be flexible and let you stay up five minutes late because you really want it." This is the education part. She has to really understand what you want from her in order to apply it. She has to see the concept of flexibility in action, so use every opportunity to point it out in her and her environment.
2. Catch her being flexible!. Give a lot of positive feedback when you see her being flexible. Try to catch all opportunities, and talk to her about it with a lot of language. Ex."sweetie, I was how flexible you were tonight at bedtime. You didn't have the toothpaste you wanted, and even though you were disappointed, you were flexible and used the other one. Thank you for being so flexible! ". A lot of praise when she shows that skill will help reinforce the behavior.
3. Only after you have done the above two successfully for a while ( ie.a few weeks), you can start planning ahead. If you know there are certain times of day that are hard for her, discuss in advance a plan of how she can be flexible and go to " Plan B". Give a lot of praise when she does do plan B even if it is hard for her. Validate how hard it is for her.
4. A lot of love and acceptance. It is very hard for a child to learn these skills. Don't get involved in power struggles with her. She is not being will fill or trying to make your life harder. She is honestly lacking important cognitive skills that will make life so much easier for her when they develop. Show her compassion while she struggles to learn these skills.
Good luck!
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 5:04 pm
Pewter, great post!

A few more general tips:

The 4 times that a kid will be most ikely to act out have the acronym, HALT -- Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. Try not to "teach lessons" during those times. Pick your battles for when and how they will be most effective. The playground incident might have been more effective with a quick parental apology, followed by the sorry picture (great idea!), made at home after praise for something she did nicely, food, and down time had her in a proper frame of mind.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Kids who are "stubborn" (inflexible) by definition have trouble transitioning. You can ease that by having clear guidelines in place, and reminding them what, when, and how. Visuals help.

A written or pictorial list that is displayed the day before and an hour before departure will ease the start of a trip. (Before trip: suitcase packed. Pick something to do and something to eat for the car. Everyone uses the bathroom. Buckle up. Off we go!) Then, at the appropriate time, when you point out the step of the plan five minutes before you need it done, it's old news, and much less fuss.

I know these strategies work, but still often forget, then kick myself later. It's a learning process for parents, too.

I do think a child who struggles with transitions, or has tantrums where his/her peers would have moved on, should be evaluated. The more information a parent and school has, the better.
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 5:37 pm
imasinger wrote:
Pewter, great post!

A few more general tips:

The 4 times that a kid will be most ikely to act out have the acronym, HALT -- Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. Try not to "teach lessons" during those times. Pick your battles for when and how they will be most effective. The playground incident might have been more effective with a quick parental apology, followed by the sorry picture (great idea!), made at home after praise for something she did nicely, food, and down time had her in a proper frame of mind.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Kids who are "stubborn" (inflexible) by definition have trouble transitioning. You can ease that by having clear guidelines in place, and reminding them what, when, and how. Visuals help.

A written or pictorial list that is displayed the day before and an hour before departure will ease the start of a trip. (Before trip: suitcase packed. Pick something to do and something to eat for the car. Everyone uses the bathroom. Buckle up. Off we go!) Then, at the appropriate time, when you point out the step of the plan five minutes before you need it done, it's old news, and much less fuss.

I know these strategies work, but still often forget, then kick myself later. It's a learning process for parents, too.

I do think a child who struggles with transitions, or has tantrums where his/her peers would have moved on, should be evaluated. The more information a parent and school has, the better.

Thank you, Imasinger. You also have great ideas above.
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bk




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 8:51 pm
I'm following this closely as I can kind of relate with my 5 year old. Although I would call her more 'high strung' (as in easily set off), then 'stubborn'.

Imasinger - what do you mean by:
"I do think a child who struggles with transitions, or has tantrums where his/her peers would have moved on, should be evaluated. The more information a parent and school has, the better."

What type of evaluation? And by whom?

Thank you all for the providing some tips here!

Maybe I should start a spinoff - I'm looking for some tips to ease anxiety in this 5 year old daughter. It is not anxiety for a specific matter, more overall and I would love some tips for that too.

Thank you all!
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Mon, Jan 04 2016, 11:07 pm
bk wrote:
I'm following this closely as I can kind of relate with my 5 year old. Although I would call her more 'high strung' (as in easily set off), then 'stubborn'.

Imasinger - what do you mean by:
"I do think a child who struggles with transitions, or has tantrums where his/her peers would have moved on, should be evaluated. The more information a parent and school has, the better."

What type of evaluation? And by whom?

Thank you all for the providing some tips here!

Maybe I should start a spinoff - I'm looking for some tips to ease anxiety in this 5 year old daughter. It is not anxiety for a specific matter, more overall and I would love some tips for that too.

Thank you all!


Hi, a spinoff would be nice, I would like to hear peoples feedback on techniques for young children with anxious personality.
Here are my suggestions:
Promote secure attachment with child/parents. This includes lots of eye contact, showing child you have time and interest in hearing them and spending time with them.
Discuss feelings, label emotions so child develops emotional literacy.
Discuss plans in advance so child knows what to anticipate.
Develop regular routines so life is predictable. Prepare child for changes in advance if you are able.
Don't take meltdowns personally. They are the child's immature and underdeveloped coping mechanism.

Would love to hear others suggestions!
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5*Mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 05 2016, 3:45 am
OP's DD sounds like she's not having trouble with transitions in general so much as when a particular plan or expectation she has gets disrupted and doesn't work out the way she expects it to. This is hard to anticipate because little kids have all kinds of things going on in their heads that we can't possibly know, some of which make sense and some of which don't, but knowing this helps to respond better to a meltdown. It also gives her a direction for working to build more flexibility, which will be a process that takes time because, after all, she is only 4.

One fun idea is to play, "What can you do?" Give your DD a scenario, for example, You are at your friend's birthday party and she is giving out lollipops. Your favorite color is red and you really want a red lollipop but when it's your turn, there aren't any more red ones left, only yellow. What can you do? She has to come up with at least 3 different ideas for things that she can do. She can include silly ideas and ideas that she knows are not good options, such as, call the police, cry and scream, etc. but also some real ideas like Ask her Mommy to check if she has any more red lollipops somewhere else, take the yellow one and see if someone will trade with me (this will need a spinoff to help her plan for when no one is willing), etc... The point is to introduce a way of thinking through a range of options and then choosing one so she doesn't get stuck in the disappointment and become unable to move on. Use props and toys to make it fun and minimize the intensity and stop when she wants to stop.

It can also be helpful to model this for her by thinking out loud when things in your own life don't go according to plan and you have to "shift cognitive set."
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Queen6




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 05 2016, 6:14 am
Start following Sari Yaraslowitz "are your hands full" if you're ready to commit to it she's the way to go. She has CD's and a book.
Well worth it. Stubborn, tantrum, can only have things a certain way..... Are difficult traits to live wit in the long run.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Jan 05 2016, 7:22 am
Thank you all! I'm reading and absorbing all the advice.

One problem that I've noticed is trying to "Plan C" a lot of stuff before is that it makes DD expand her areas of stubborness. If I don't keep a fairly tight reign, then she's stubborn about EVERYTHING. I tried doing this for a few months of really picking my battles, but she became way more inflexible. It was like she knew that you were letting her get away with things so she dug her heels into more situations where she might have been flexible.
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