Ashkenazi/Persian Wedding HELP!!!

tichellady

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 5:29 pm

Also one more thing: weddings in LA tend to be quite expensive. There are cheaper and more expensive places but as a rule cheaper weddings are much easier to arrange in NY. I can recommend an affordable florist in LA and nessah or Sephardic temple may be cheaper than the Olympic collection but I imagine hotels will cost more.

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 5:29 pm

I'm not Persian, I'm another kind of Mizrachi, so take my comments with a grain of salt and check that Persians do this too. Mizrachi customs tend to be pretty similar from country to country but not 100% the same.

The talit over the chattan and kallah is considered by some the actual chuppa. This is usually not negotiable for this reason. Many don't get married with a ring, but rather with a coin. Check their minhag. We don't circle 7 times, no yichud room and definitely no mitzva dance. A really good mechitza that nobody can see through is very important so that women will be comfortable really dancing. We don't carry candles.

The henna is possibly more important than the wedding, as far as a party goes. The MIL is expected to give the kallah a beautiful purse with her wedding jewelry and money for the mikva. Part of this is that the pre-wedding and wedding is supposed to comfort the bride and her family about their sadness at leaving her father's house, and show everyone how happy her husband's family is to have her and how grateful they are to her family for letting them take her into their family. The more over-the-top the wedding is and giving (within their means, obviously, and not just with monetary things), the more the groom's family is showing that they value the bride. The bride is escorted from the mikva to the party as part of a procession of drumming, singing women. Back in the day, this procession would start at her house but today it's usually as she enters the party. The colors of decorations at the henna are red and green, for money and fertility. We don't use black henna at a henna, only red. We don't do the plate, most don't give an engagement ring either or do anything that could possibly make you halachically married before the wedding.

Not all Sephardim do sheva brachot every night. The parents of the bride and groom are supposed to bring meals to the couple for a week. Many sephardim expect to go to the mikva in a loose dress/shirt which by many, the MIL is supposed to make/provide. The bride has the right to keep TH according to the minhag of her mother. The husband is not supposed to question her on kashrut. The husband is supposed to provide the place to live and furniture. By most people, the bride will bring linens etc. The bride is supposed to buy the groom a new tallit and seforim. Sometimes a watch. The groom's family is supposed to bring the bride 7 gold bracelets, (single wear 2, married wear 7, although that was back in the day almost nobody does that anymore) a gold necklace and a strand of pearls. This jewelry is also her security money that she can sell if troubles come up.

Some only get married on a Sunday during the day, some on a Wednesday at night and some on a Thursday at night. Some on a Monday night or Tuesday during the day.

By us, the bride's family pays for the wedding and the groom's family for all the other parties, but I think Persians do the opposite. I'm not sure.

The chuppa is not outside, it is preferably in front of a sefer torah. The ketuba is stored at the house of the bride's mother. Usually the time between when the wedding was called for and when it happens (+/- 2 hours) is for photographs. It would be rude to go at the time on the invitation, you would embarrass your host because they definitely won't be ready. Personally, we needed a lot longer than anticipated for photographs, figure more like 4 hours and make sure that people know what time they are actually supposed to be there. Some people pass trays of appetizers around. Most people do a zeffa (sp?) which is very important and the DJ needs to know. And who is announced in what order at the zeffa is important. Guests are expected to throw money during the zeffa. Also some people do a receiving line. traditionally, the bride and groom are supposed to hand deliver the invitations together which means that they are 1) kept busy and less nervous and 2) getting marriage advice from everyone.

Some save the wedding dress to wear at a brit if there is a son. Today, we only do that with a caftan-style wedding dress because you obviously don't wear your western-style wedding dress 1 week postpartum.

Some people don't serve a meal altogether, just meat appetizers, but I think Persians always serve a meal. Sephardim don't fast on their wedding day, and we believe you are forgiven of all of your sins on your wedding day. Some people eat eggs, particularly fish eggs, for fertility (just the bride and groom).

Sometimes, the ketuba will specify that the husband is not allowed to take a 2nd wife.

Ta'arof-you need to ask 3 times by us. Again, not Persian, I think Persians do this more.

When the kallah is young, her husband's family helps her and takes care of her and when her in laws are older, since sons are more responsible for caring for their parents than daughters, your DIL would probably be more in charge of your day-to-day care than your daughters.

This is a pretty good book. http://www.amazon.com/A-Treasu.....50317

Hope this helps. Again, I am not Persian.

cnc

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 5:32 pm

This is so fascinating!

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 5:46 pm

[quote="tichellady"]Also one more thing: weddings in LA tend to be quite expensive. There are cheaper and more expensive places but as a rule cheaper weddings are much easier to arrange in NY. I can recommend an affordable florist in LA and nessah or Sephardic temple may be cheaper than the Olympic collection but I imagine hotels will cost more.[/quote]

Yes, we are finding LA to be ridiculous. Nessah and Sephardic Temple are not cheap, but the guy at OC was RUDE.

I sent the kids a link to an Elvis wedding in Las Vegas but they aren't interested.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 5:54 pm

amother wrote:

The henna is possibly more important than the wedding, as far as a party goes. The MIL is expected to give the kallah a beautiful purse with her wedding jewelry and money for the mikva. Part of this is that the pre-wedding and wedding is supposed to comfort the bride and her family about their sadness at leaving her father's house, and show everyone how happy her husband's family is to have her and how grateful they are to her family for letting them take her into their family. The more over-the-top the wedding is and giving (within their means, obviously, and not just with monetary things), the more the groom's family is showing that they value the bride. The bride is escorted from the mikva to the party as part of a procession of drumming, singing women. Back in the day, this procession would start at her house but today it's usually as she enters the party. The colors of decorations at the henna are red and green, for money and fertility. We don't use black henna at a henna, only red. We don't do the plate, most don't give an engagement ring either or do anything that could possibly make you halachically married before the wedding.

Most mizrachim that I know, at least in Israel, do not have the henna on the same day as the mikva. The henna party is a huge party with all the relatives, the traditional robes and so on, and it can happen any time in the weeks preceeding the wedding. Usually there is oriental dancing with huge platters of sweets.
The mikva party is something different, where the brides' female relatives all wait for her in the receiving room, and after she's immersed (and dressed) they tru-lu-lu-lu and throw candies at her. Not all brides today want this party and it's not a given.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 6:00 pm

amother wrote:

This is fascinating indeed, but none of the mizrachi people I know go by most of this anymore, including all the Persians I know.
They all had engagement rings, and they all got married with wedding rings (and not with coins). I don't know a single person who wore their wedding dress to their brit.
Also, the gold bracelet collection was common maybe 50 years ago. You can see many grandmothers adorned with gold. I don't know anyone who buys 7 gold bracelets these days, and definitely no pearl necklace. Jewlery is often bought, but it's just what the bride likes.

I think a lot of these traditions are no longer practised in most mizrachi circles, even the ones that are pretty traditional.

Mrs Bissli

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 7:58 pm

I'm glad someone raised aufruf vs Shabbat Hatan, which I think is top of the list for potential confusions. Ketuba wordings are slightly different for Sephardim vs Ashkenazim, if thinking of commissioning.

I'm not sure if messader kiddushin is Sephardi or Ashkenazi but he should be able to explain to both families. As for Huppa, Sephardim minhag is no kittel (heck we don't even use that for yom kippur, for us it looks actually like a shroud). Also they don't traditionally split up sheva berachot esp for the huppa but I've known some Sephardi rabbis allowing this.

Some of the henna party I've been to has become co-ed events with relatives, mikva party is definitely womens only. Definitely ask what levels of gifts are expected to avoid potential embarrassment.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 8:16 pm

The mesader kiddushin is Ashkenazi but has lived in LA for many years and speaks Farsi. He's been very helpful with many things, but I don't want to drive him crazy with questions like how much jewelry we're supposed to buy. He's the who tipped us off about paying.

2cents

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 8:28 pm

amother wrote:

Jewlery is a very big deal, and has a lot of tradition and emotion attached to it in the persian culture. It is also seen as an 'investment' or financial contribution to the couple.
I recommend you ask either the rabbi, or someone else what is expected (not saying you have to do what is expected--it is rather extravagant, but you may want to clarify with the other side through a third party.) I know of a few engagements that were called off due to misunderstandings or disagreements about the jewlery.

The jewlery is usually presented with great ceremony, and each of the grooms relatives are called up at the engagement party to put a piece of jewlery on the bride. Prior to that, the jewlery is displayed on nice dishes, decorated with candies and flowers.

amother

Red

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 8:47 pm

In general (except possibly minhagim for TH & lighting candles) women adopt the minhagim of their husband. Therefore I would expect the ceremony to follow Ashkenazi practice. Your son should be discussing it with the mesader kiddushin (who, again, is usually chosen by the chosson e.g. his Rosh Yeshiva or Rov.)

It's sounds like you're expecting the girl's side to make all the decisions. Nice to accommodate their minhagim etc. but, for example, Ashkenazim hold you need yichud and many Sefardim don't, but it should go according to the chosson unless he plans to become Sefardic?

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 9:57 pm

No, he's not going to become Sefardi. (wouldn't that be nice if we could just do that right before Pesach?) I expect the couple and their rov to make the ceremony decisions, but it will definitely be Ashkenazi with a few Sefardi things if we can. I refuse to walk with a lit candle so that's not a discussion. The only condition I put on the chuppah is that if the mothers walk the kallah, we should wear the same color.

I guess I need to find out if a kittle will upset them. Thank you to the Mother who said that. It would never have occurred to me. That's why saying "normal" is a problem.

The jewelry thing is awkward. I own very little jewelry by choice, not even an engagement ring. (We were saving up to buy a car.) I suppose I need to find out what sort of jewelry we're supposed to get her. But any relationship that would break up over jewelry is not a girl I want my son to marry.

octopus

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 10:17 pm

I've been to one persian wedding and the chuppah is joyous,( very much like above video, with cheers and whistles) versus the very, very serious ashkenazi chuppahs. I've been to one ashkenazi/persian wedding where the chattan was very yeshivish and the only persian thing there was the chattan brought the kallah under the chuppah (after she marched down).Maybe there was a tallis. I don't remember.

amother

Azure

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 11:22 pm

I had a Persian friend who was part of Long Island community even though she was living in Brooklyn at the time, and has a sis-in-law from queens.

Don't know if what I observed was the rule for all Persians or more well to do ones. You could probably adjust for the realities of kallahs family of you know where they are holding. My friends had to grit the teeth and put in a show scrimping for all the "required" gifts, presenting some from themselves and some from parents who were out of contry then. I am sure though that if not for the crazy pressure from extended family they would have been happy to receive less and in turn be obliged to come up with less. In their, supposedly affluent family (though really some had the money, and others had to keep up the appearance) they did the following:
They did an engagement party where both sides presented the couple with loads of jewelry and silver. it was supposedly to be saved for a rainy day.

The kallahs were getting a diamond necklace from (officially) the parents of the groom. Diamond necklace meant not a chain&pendant but a gold necklace purchased on 47th st and then set with close to 100 diamonds. My friends did it at a fraction of retail by going to acquaintances in 47th and buying necklace from one merchant and ordering diamonds put in by another one. 15 years ago it cost them less than 1k. I would imagine if someone on the forum knows people in business they could suggest you where to go/ with whom to consult, even if you're not in ny. The necklace was supposed to be worn by the wedding.

The kallahs got an engagement ring or a set with matching band from the groom. The one that got a set def expected only an engagement ring, the extra band was just that extra oomph that her fiancé wanted to do. I would say, let your son find out from her what she prefers re stone size, style etc. my friend got a huge ring but she didn't expect it. Yet a different (foolish) young lady's foolish friends made comments that her stone was too small.

Grooms mother gave her earrings at the engagement party, and she received various old fashioned looking long jewelry "chains" from diff family members but prob she wouldn't wear them, and they were to be kept in the bank. Prob you can skip that, as it was not from groom/ parents specifically.

They had a wedding, and around the wedding (week before I think) a party in honor of the kallah, by grooms family. They gave her more presents, which was totally not expected by her side, over which they felt very stupid bec they had not brought anything. But the point is it was not a normal expected custom.

Also, have they had an engagement yet?

Basically, in those circles the expected things were diamond necklace from parents, diamond ring from groom. At some point iirc they would get a pearl necklace. Rest kind of optional (could be silver Kos or tableware, set of small cups whatever you or family wants to give) and appreciated by a grateful undemanding kallah in one case, vs demanded by a different immature ungrateful kallah in a diff case.

Also note that in that community generally the grooms were a little older and established, snot a yeshiva boy, therefore a certain "level" of presents was expected.

Could you clarify where financially the kallah family is holding, if they believe they have a specific "status". Like my friends would classify some family as more "classy", whatever that meant lol, others wealthy, others more simple or chilled.

amother

Azure

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 11:31 pm

Here, they would get smth like this:

amother

Papaya

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 11:34 pm

oh dear...

You know the Elvis wedding keeps looking better and better to me.

Kol sasson v'kol simcha but don't step on my blue suede shoes!!

amother

Papaya

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:01 am

This is the type of necklace she wants...

amother

Azure

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:14 am

amother wrote:

This is the type of necklace she wants...

Are you, the mom of the groom, supposed to procure it?! Talk about expectations after that... LOL

amother

Papaya

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:19 am

We're just holding our breath to see where she gets in. Then I can get her a white coat with her new name embroidered on it!!! Who needs earrings?

Actually even the best quality stethoscopes are not that expensive.

Rutabaga

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:20 am

amother wrote:

This is the type of necklace she wants...

Do you have to pay her tuition so she can earn her stethoscope? Because you would get off cheaper with diamonds. Wink

2cents

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:21 am

The minimum jewlery I've seen given is one piece of gold jewlery at proposal, and then a diamond ring, plus a 'set' at the engagement party. The set includes a diamond necklace (necklace, not pendant, but is can be bought relatively inexpensively--think diamond chips, rather than the larger diamond in the post above mine), diamond earrings (not studs, again, think diamond chip encrusted), diamond bracelet (if a diamond bracelet was given at proposal this can be skipped), and second diamond ring--again, not a big diamond, rather a right hand ring with a small diamond dust design (if you're going minimal, this might be saved to give in the yichud room-- side note, many persians have yichud room, but have someone knock and enter every several minutes so that the couple won't encounter the sephardic halachic issues).

Typically, when the groom is persian, there's more. For example, in ny it is very common for the bride to get 2-3 sets (white gold, yellow gold, and one less extravagant set that she can wear every shabbos). Plus, other relatives will also present her with jewlery (grandparents on one or both sides, married siblings, her own parents, etc).

The price can range from my sister's set (her dh spent less than $3000 on everything, including her diamond engagement ring, but excluding a second ring, and only including a diamond bracelet that he proposed with) to the set my brother bought for his kallah (over $9000, not including a platinum engagement ring with a large diamond, and not including the gold bracelet he proposed with).