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Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2016, 10:59 pm
Anyone on with sons in this school? I saw an unbelievable letter to parents posted on Facebook. https://m.facebook.com/story.p.....79028
Is this for real? The letter suggests that parents not let their sons see their report cards, in case they'd be traumatised by their mediocre grades. The crazy part is the closing, where the school offers to print a new report card with better grades to show the boys.

I understand that some school communications are not meant for the kids, but what could possibly be there point of showing kids a fake report card with fake - great - grades? How can you then tell your son he has to work harder? What am I missing?
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EnnuiGalore




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2016, 11:39 pm
This is pretty much why moschiach hasn't come.
Absurd, ridiculous, and so unethical.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Sun, Jan 17 2016, 11:58 pm
amother wrote:


I understand that some school communications are not meant for the kids, but what could possibly be there point of showing kids a fake report card with fake - great - grades? How can you then tell your son he has to work harder? What am I missing?


I am the OP of the thread on motivating parents. I have also been doing research into motivation. In addition, I read the comments posted when one news organization posted an article on this ridiculing the school.

One the comments said that the boys get turned off and shut down when they get low grades. I learned from my research that a boost in the GPA serves as a student motivator to further success. I have experienced the quickly giving up if the children do not see results. My students are unhappy if they don't see a 100 and ask "why bother" since they are only getting a 93 and they put in hard work.

I have no connection with this school.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 2:47 pm
Letter of rebuttal from the school:
(The last comment here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......html )

======================================================
Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island

Although in general it is prudent not to respond to public displays (or any form) of foolishness or folly, the recent flurry of interest in Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island’s (“YKLI”) report card letter has generated such obscene reaction that I feel compelled to reply.
Unfortunately, many schools do not grade report cards honestly, thereby generating a false positive for talmidim that could prove to have devastating consequences in High School / Mesivta. To address this false-positive grading issue, YKLI’s administration made a conscious decision to report to parents “honest grades” and true, transparent progress of their son. We feel it is the right of every parent to know the truth, and the responsibility of our school to tell. Although parents were surprised the first year to see a contrast in their son’s grades compared to previous years, the overwhelming majority were very pleased and comforted by the fact that YKLI was rolling up its sleeve to address weaknesses in a child’s study rather than sweep them under the rug.
In transitioning to this system of full disclosure, we recognize that for certain children – who are trying hard to accomplish at their level – honest academic grades could be demoralizing and frustrate a student’s resolve to keep trying harder. We therefore offered an option to the parents to present an “inflated” report card to be used as a tool of positive reinforcement in addressing their children’s emotional and psychological needs, all while working with their partner, YKLI, in addressing the child’s continuing weaknesses.
Indeed, some children would be forever discouraged to see zero progress or result from their very hard work purely because the grade-point average mathematically prohibits the Yeshiva from doing so. For those parents who have used this tool, they have seen resounding affects from both a learning perspective as well as an emotional and psychological standpoint. (You’d be surprised how much self confidence factors into studying and test-taking skills.)
All who are familiar with the inner workings of our school are aware of the unusual amount of time dedicated by our teachers and staff to address the needs of EVERY student. Truth be told, last year, with 300 students receiving 3 report cards over the year (total of 900 report cards), only five were sent for special cases, only after extensive consultation between the parent and their partner, the Yeshiva. Yeshiva Ketana is very proud of its educational and chinuch system, and would encourage other schools to follow our lead. (Perhaps the silver lining from this fiasco is that more parents will demand the truth and more schools will begin honest reporting).
To find out that our Yeshiva is being cast as NOT reporting honest grades is absurd and preposterous! The exact opposite is the truth. This entire incident highlights the clear dangers of social media and the many irresponsible contributors to this menace. It is shameful that this clear and self-explanatory letter was taken out of context (many actually admitted that they did not read the entire letter, only the underlined part) without its anonymous critics availing himself or herself of any background information or knowledge of the dedication of our outstanding staff.
The perpetrators used this letter for no other reason other than to embarrass and humiliate the Yeshiva. It furthered no other fathomable purpose. Imagine when just spoken “words” between employees, spouses or friends are posted with no context or clarity! I could not be more pleased or proud of our dedicated staff and committed parents! Our emphasis on excellence in education is a model for all. Pay no attention to the screams of the misinformed. We have nothing to be ashamed of, other than a member of our community who would post our letters and CREATE such an impression.
Wishing you all a wonderful Shabbos!
Rabbi Tzvi Krigsman
Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island
321 Doughty Blvd
Inwood NY

(I have zero involvement with the community or the school)
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 2:53 pm
So the defense is that everyone lies, we don't want to lose out for telling the truth. Depressing, no?
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 2:55 pm
EnnuiGalore wrote:
This is pretty much why moschiach hasn't come.
Absurd, ridiculous, and so unethical.


Scratching Head
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 3:04 pm
cbsp wrote:
Letter of rebuttal from the school:
(The last comment here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com......html )

======================================================
Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island

Although in general it is prudent not to respond to public displays (or any form) of foolishness or folly, the recent flurry of interest in Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island’s (“YKLI”) report card letter has generated such obscene reaction that I feel compelled to reply.
Unfortunately, many schools do not grade report cards honestly, thereby generating a false positive for talmidim that could prove to have devastating consequences in High School / Mesivta. To address this false-positive grading issue, YKLI’s administration made a conscious decision to report to parents “honest grades” and true, transparent progress of their son. We feel it is the right of every parent to know the truth, and the responsibility of our school to tell. Although parents were surprised the first year to see a contrast in their son’s grades compared to previous years, the overwhelming majority were very pleased and comforted by the fact that YKLI was rolling up its sleeve to address weaknesses in a child’s study rather than sweep them under the rug.
In transitioning to this system of full disclosure, we recognize that for certain children – who are trying hard to accomplish at their level – honest academic grades could be demoralizing and frustrate a student’s resolve to keep trying harder. We therefore offered an option to the parents to present an “inflated” report card to be used as a tool of positive reinforcement in addressing their children’s emotional and psychological needs, all while working with their partner, YKLI, in addressing the child’s continuing weaknesses.
Indeed, some children would be forever discouraged to see zero progress or result from their very hard work purely because the grade-point average mathematically prohibits the Yeshiva from doing so. For those parents who have used this tool, they have seen resounding affects from both a learning perspective as well as an emotional and psychological standpoint. (You’d be surprised how much self confidence factors into studying and test-taking skills.)
All who are familiar with the inner workings of our school are aware of the unusual amount of time dedicated by our teachers and staff to address the needs of EVERY student. Truth be told, last year, with 300 students receiving 3 report cards over the year (total of 900 report cards), only five were sent for special cases, only after extensive consultation between the parent and their partner, the Yeshiva. Yeshiva Ketana is very proud of its educational and chinuch system, and would encourage other schools to follow our lead. (Perhaps the silver lining from this fiasco is that more parents will demand the truth and more schools will begin honest reporting).
To find out that our Yeshiva is being cast as NOT reporting honest grades is absurd and preposterous! The exact opposite is the truth. This entire incident highlights the clear dangers of social media and the many irresponsible contributors to this menace. It is shameful that this clear and self-explanatory letter was taken out of context (many actually admitted that they did not read the entire letter, only the underlined part) without its anonymous critics availing himself or herself of any background information or knowledge of the dedication of our outstanding staff.
The perpetrators used this letter for no other reason other than to embarrass and humiliate the Yeshiva. It furthered no other fathomable purpose. Imagine when just spoken “words” between employees, spouses or friends are posted with no context or clarity! I could not be more pleased or proud of our dedicated staff and committed parents! Our emphasis on excellence in education is a model for all. Pay no attention to the screams of the misinformed. We have nothing to be ashamed of, other than a member of our community who would post our letters and CREATE such an impression.
Wishing you all a wonderful Shabbos!
Rabbi Tzvi Krigsman
Yeshiva Ketana of Long Island
321 Doughty Blvd
Inwood NY

(I have zero involvement with the community or the school)

They "transitioned to a system of full-disclosure?" Does that mean that before this year, they *only* reported fake grades, and now they are patting themselves on the back for reporting actual grades in addition to the fake ones (if requested)?

What a bunch of feel-good double-talk. They should be ashamed of themselves.
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twogees




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 4:13 pm
whats the difference between this and a modified test? the kids getting a modified test automatically get the different report card.
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EnnuiGalore




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 6:14 pm
DrMom wrote:
They "transitioned to a system of full-disclosure?" Does that mean that before this year, they *only* reported fake grades, and now they are patting themselves on the back for reporting actual grades in addition to the fake ones (if requested)?

What a bunch of feel-good double-talk. They should be ashamed of themselves.


I totally agree. How about teaching the students some coping skills?!? Not everything is about "self esteem."
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 6:28 pm
If the number grade is the only way to indicate to a child that they are putting effort into something and accomplishing - that's a problem.
Will kids not pick up that they're being presented with artificial achievements?
And what about the student who gets a B and the parents want him to think he got an A?
The layers of issues here are numerous.
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momtra




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 6:40 pm
wondering if this was the yeshiva's idea, or pressure from parents? Either way I can't understand it. I have a child who struggles tremendously in school and she has BH a very positive view of herself. Takes a lot of effort and resourcefulness , but she knows that in life it's the process that trumps the product.
Would be curious to know if kids were asked if they would want to see a report card with fake grades what they would say. True success breeds success, but if this is the way to indicate success, it's a cheap way out.
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granolamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 9:11 pm
twogees wrote:
whats the difference between this and a modified test? the kids getting a modified test automatically get the different report card.


test modification means that it has been determined, after much thought and deliberation by the principal, teachers, resource room, parents, etc, that the student is not able to effectively learn when held responsible for the same amount of information as the rest of the class or that the student is not able to successfully test in the same way as the rest of the class.
so either the student is responsible for less material or the test is given with modifications (or both). the grade the student receives on the test is the grade used to calculate report card grades, that is not changed to shield the student from accurate feedback.

the kids getting modified testing, should not be receiving different report cards than what they have earned - with those modifications.

I imagine that there is a place for doing what the original letter offers, but I also imagine that very few kids really need that. more than a couple a year in an entire school is probably more than necessary.
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granolamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 9:19 pm
momtra wrote:
wondering if this was the yeshiva's idea, or pressure from parents? Either way I can't understand it. I have a child who struggles tremendously in school and she has BH a very positive view of herself. Takes a lot of effort and resourcefulness , but she knows that in life it's the process that trumps the product.
Would be curious to know if kids were asked if they would want to see a report card with fake grades what they would say. True success breeds success, but if this is the way to indicate success, it's a cheap way out.


here's one answer to your last question... I have a child who struggles tremendously. she works really hard and every now and then she has a teacher who artificially inflates her grades.
while she likes having higher grades, it bothers her that her work doesnt seem to matter. she knows those teachers will pass her no matter how poorly she does. makes her feel like they think she's so dumb she cant even pass. or so pathetic that she cant handle a poor grade.
she prefers honesty and integrity. and respect. when you artificially inflate a grade, one message you send is 'we like you and we cant imagine you being a 'D' so we'll just write down a 'B' meaning that your value is determined by your grade. if we are REALLY honest about not esteeming a person based on his grades, then we shouldnt. there are ways to respectfully give accurate feedback.
an opportunity to bring up a grade with an extra project or retest is appropriate and kind, and is one way to set a child up for success.
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momtra




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 18 2016, 10:12 pm
granolamom wrote:
here's one answer to your last question... I have a child who struggles tremendously. she works really hard and every now and then she has a teacher who artificially inflates her grades.
while she likes having higher grades, it bothers her that her work doesnt seem to matter. she knows those teachers will pass her no matter how poorly she does. makes her feel like they think she's so dumb she cant even pass. or so pathetic that she cant handle a poor grade.
she prefers honesty and integrity. and respect. when you artificially inflate a grade, one message you send is 'we like you and we cant imagine you being a 'D' so we'll just write down a 'B' meaning that your value is determined by your grade. if we are REALLY honest about not esteeming a person based on his grades, then we shouldnt. there are ways to respectfully give accurate feedback.
an opportunity to bring up a grade with an extra project or retest is appropriate and kind, and is one way to set a child up for success.


Well said!
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 1:22 am
As far as I can tell, this approach just pushes off the moment of truth. The little boy who was lied to in elementary school goes on to high school, a straight A student on his eyes (and maybe in the eyes of the high school, if they got the doctored report card) and doesn't understand why he's struggling. Does the high school have to lie also, so our baffled student doesn't feel bad? I don't know if this kid is going to college, but what happens then? What about at work, when he can't keep up?

These kids, whose whole fault is that they are B students, are being set up to lie and cheat.

If the issue is not hurting a child's feelings, maybe the solution is expanding report cards beyond numbers and letters. How about assessing friendliness, manual dexterity, kindness, flexibility and adaptability, and other life skills along with the academic ones? There's much more to a child than his academic achievements. But in the same way that you can't tell a child that he ran a mile in 4 minutes when he ran it in 8, you can't tell him that he's mastered a subject when he hasn't.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 1:29 am
amother wrote:
If the number grade is the only way to indicate to a child that they are putting effort into something and accomplishing - that's a problem.
Will kids not pick up that they're being presented with artificial achievements?
And what about the student who gets a B and the parents want him to think he got an A?
The layers of issues here are numerous.

There are many solutions to the bolded besides fabricating inflated grades:

1. Have teachers include a "comments" section where they can say things like "Yaacov really puts tremendous effort into his studies, even though it is difficult for him. He should be praised for his efforts," or "Moshe's grades do not reflect his ability. If he put more effort into his studies, he could easily be a star student," etc.

2. Include separate grades for effort, study habits, general attitude toward studies, etc.

3. Offer subjects in different tracks: a more challenging track, a middle-of-the-road track, and a track for students who need extra help.

4. Institute entrance exams so weak students will not be admitted to places that are too difficult for them.

All of these are more honest alternatives to just making up stuff.

I am curious: Is this line of thinking really common in yeshivot? What about in public schools in the US?
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 1:32 am
5mom, I see we x-posted with similar ideas.
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Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 1:39 am
I am totally against reporting different grades to the parents. The kids will find out in a split second (hey, it's on Facebook already), and in addition to being 'traumatized' by the real grades, will feel infantilized by the deceipt.

In general, I am against grades altogether in elementary school. Grades on tests I guess are ok, but the report card should not be a 'comparison' report card, or at least only minimally; it should be focused on the child and his or her own progress, and it should preferably veer away from numbers/percentages and use descriptions instead.

Once you get to junior high, I think numbers need to be incorporated, but there should be a weighty section given to effort, derech eretz, behaviour, etc. The kid can see that he got 40% in mishna but the teacher thinks he is the most positive influence on others in the class, etc.

Also, there needs to be full transparency (in contrast to what's described here!). The teachers need to sit with the pupils from grade seven up, and tell them how they built the grade (60% tests, 20% quizzes, 10% hw, 10% effort - whatever). A grade should not be a surprise on report card day. A teacher should also explain that they are learning on xyz level, and thus the grades are assessed accordingly.

Balance, balance. It's not about 'spoiling kids'. It's about not tearing them down before they've had a chance to grow up.
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Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 1:42 am
DrMom wrote:
There are many solutions to the bolded besides fabricating inflated grades:

1. Have teachers include a "comments" section where they can say things like "Yaacov really puts tremendous effort into his studies, even though it is difficult for him. He should be praised for his efforts," or "Moshe's grades do not reflect his ability. If he put more effort into his studies, he could easily be a star student," etc.

2. Include separate grades for effort, study habits, general attitude toward studies, etc.

3. Offer subjects in different tracks: a more challenging track, a middle-of-the-road track, and a track for students who need extra help.

4. Institute entrance exams so weak students will not be admitted to places that are too difficult for them.

All of these are more honest alternatives to just making up stuff.

I am curious: Is this line of thinking really common in yeshivot? What about in public schools in the US?


I agree with all of these except for number 4. I don't believe in entrance exams for junior or high school. It causes segregation long before it's necessary (these kids will have enough time to be segregated post-high school).
Kids can learn in different tracks in the same school, and still have the same homeroom teacher, or meet up at recess.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 19 2016, 2:02 am
DrMom wrote:
5mom, I see we x-posted with similar ideas.


Great minds think alike. Very Happy
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