Thinking of leaving. My DS is gay.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:34 am

Okay, we posted a viewpoint of R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l. I cannot argue with his halachic viewpoint. However the reason OP started the thread was due to the treatment of her son or what she fears her son will face if he comes out to the public. and that means lots of name calling and bullying. I believe that there are halachos against that as well.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:35 am

fmt4 wrote:

Uh, surely this will not save you from anything, and will just make you feel horrible about yourself and probably lead to a miserable life and or suicide. Rolling Eyes

Perhaps over time, the sons have adopted another view. Does anyone know?

Torah View on Homosexuality

"K'maase Eretz Mitzrayim asher yeshavtem ba lo sa'asu - like the practice of the land of Egypt in which you dwelled do not do" (Vayikra 18:3)

This verse prohibits the most immoral forms of behavior - idolatry, incest, adultery, bloodshed, male and female homosexual activity and bestiality[1]. The prohibition against male homosexual behavior is repeated in Vayikra 18:22. Prohibited homosexual activity includes any non-platonic physical contact; even yichud (seclusion) with someone of the same gender is forbidden for homosexually active individuals[2].

In addition to its legislative content, this verse also provides a fundamental insight into human nature and propensities. The Torah emphasizes "asher yeshavtem ba - in which you dwelled"; but Jews of all generations most certainly know that we lived in Eretz Mitzrayim. The Torah's statement of the obvious warns us to be on guard against societal influence. We become susceptible to even the most egregious and vile forms of behavior if we do not guard against societal influence. "Human nature is such that a person in his beliefs, character, dispositions, and actions is drawn after his friends and colleagues and acts in the same fashion as his countrymen" (Rambam Hilchos De'os 6:1). (How to take such precautionary measures will, God willing, be discussed below.) Thus a full interpretive translation of the verse reads: the behavior of Eretz Mitzrayim, to which, having lived there, you may be inclined, is forbidden to you.

Ramban[3] comments that the descent to Mitzrayim foreshadows the current galus. He highlights the historical symmetry between the descent to Mitzrayim and the origins of the current galus. Sadly, we can highlight an additional point of symmetry. The "Mitzrayim" in which we find ourselves is also plagued by aberrant behavior, including the practice of homosexuality. Here too due to societal influence we have become susceptible to such behavior. Moreover, Mitzrayim of old not only engaged in corrupt behavior, it legitimized and mainstreamed such behavior. "Our sages said, what were they (I.e. Mitzriyim) accustomed to doing? Men married men and women married women…"[4] Similarly, the Mitzrayim of today's galus seeks to legitimize and mainstream the abominable practice (toeiva) of homosexuality. Frighteningly, we who live here are not only practically affected, but also axiologically and ideationally infected. Not only our behavior but our very Weltanschauung has been compromised and contaminated.

Let us illustrate and elaborate the effect of society's insidious influence regarding homosexuality. In a Torah society, unaffected and uninfected by today's Mitzrayim, what should one's attitude be towards homosexual behavior and homosexual individuals? Homosexual behavior is absolutely prohibited and constitutes an abomination[5]. Discreet, unconditionally halachically committed Jews who do not practice homosexuality but feel same relations attraction (ssa) should be sympathetically and wholeheartedly supported. They can be wonderful Jews, fully deserving of our love, respect, and support. They should be encouraged to seek professional guidance. Moreover, in an uninfected Torah society, appropriate sympathy for discreet shomrei Torah u'mitzvos who experience but do not act upon ssa is clearly distinguished from brazen public identification of their yetzer hara for forbidden behavior. In a pure Torah society people would recognize that every individual neshama is given its own unique constellation of challenges and some of these challenges consist of feeling an impulse to forbidden behavior. But every individual neshama also possesses the resilience and strength to triumph over its challenges[6].

How painful, sad and sobering is the sharp contrast between the clear attitude that should prevail in a pure Torah community and the confusion that exists among well-intentioned individuals within our communities. We are not speaking of the heresy of elements who although identifying themselves as Orthodox demand (sic.) change in the Torah, rachamanah litzlan, a clear violation of the thirteen principles of faith. Instead we are speaking of the confusion caused by today's Mitzrayim within our communities. Due to the influence of today's Mitzrayim, appropriate sympathy in discreet settings has become conflated with public, celebratory identification of people with an urge for forbidden behavior. In today's galus ssa is not viewed as a challenge of kevishas hayetzer (overcoming and taming impulses for forbidden behavior), but rather as a troubling halacha lacking in compassion, rachmanah litzlan.

The influence of today's Mitzrayim on our thinking is sadly and dramatically evident. The light of Torah, however, dispels confusion. Talmud Torah, when honestly and unconditionally pursued, allows us to recognize societally induced pre/misconceptions and biases. Talmud Torah allows us to absorb the divine Weltanschauung. Inevitably, with respect to homosexuality, Talmud Torah will place us at odds with political correctness and the temper of the times. Nevertheless, we must be honest with ourselves, and with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, regardless of political correctness, considerations or consequences.

Editor's note: Readers may also be interested in the following audio shiurim: A Response to the Recent "Orthodox" Gay Forum and Absolute Truth and Alternate Life Styles: The Torah's Position on Homosexuality

[1] The Sifra (Vayikra 138:5), cited by Rashi ad loc. refers to the atrocities of Eretz Mitzrayim as being the most corrupt of all nations. The Sifra (138:7) further provides the list of activities in which the Mitzriyim engaged. See also Rambam Hilchos Isurei Biah 21:8.

[2] Rambam Hilchos Isurei Biah 21:1,2; 22:1,2. See also Shulchan Aruch Even HoEzer 24

[3] Commentary to Breishis 43:14, 47:18

[4] Rambam Hilchos Isurei Biah 21:8

[5]Vayikra 18:22

[6] In the present forum we are not discussing the halachic category of shotim.

Copyright © 2010 by The TorahWeb Foundation. All rights reserved.

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/......html

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:38 am

amother wrote:

For sure.

"You gotta do what you gotta do" but not b'farhesya.

Imho everyone has to keep their mouths shut. Both the gay people and the public peanut gallery.

boymom

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:46 am

first of all of I highly commend OP for giving her son the unconditional love and acceptance that he deserves simply because he's her child. As I always tell my kids "mommy will always love you no matter what you do, if I'm upset it's at your behavior but I still love you".

secondly, I'll agree I'm totally naïve in regard to this topic (and I'm not embarrassed to say so hence not hiding behind the safety of amother) but how does someone consider themselves gay if they didn't act upon it? if you don't "live" with men, then what makes you gay? did he marry a woman, hate the man and woman relationship and thus decide that he's gay? I really don't understand. (like if I dream about eating cheeseburgers, not keeping tznius or TH, does that make me secular?)

I'm not ch'v accusing or judging, I'm just trying to understand how one declares "gay" without living it?

amother

Wheat

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:49 am

amother wrote:

For sure.

"You gotta do what you gotta do" but not b'farhesya.

Imho everyone has to keep their mouths shut. Both the gay people and the public peanut gallery.

I agree with this, very often gay people try to shove it in your face...it may be part of so desperately wanting to be accepted...but the same way I dont share what I do in the bedroom gay people should understand nobody is interested in knowing what they are doing either.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

For sure.

"You gotta do what you gotta do" but not b'farhesya.

Imho everyone has to keep their mouths shut. Both the gay people and the public peanut gallery.

who said anyone is doing something? that was my point. Being gay means having a huge struggle to surmount, it doesn't mean that they are doing anything wrong. It means that if they don't break halachah, they are really strong and deserving of our admiration, not our wagging tongues.

WhatFor

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:57 am

Seashell, can you please stop trolling here? I'd recommend that you start a spinoff except I believe that threads on the permissibility of homosexuality are banned. The OP is not asking what halacha has to say about homosexuality. She's discussing a personal issue with her community and their acceptance of her son. If you have nothing on point to say, why post anything at all?

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

Nothing was shoved in anyone's face. OP said very few people know about it. Since she's talking about her son in a sense of still growing up, I'm assuming she means her teenage son. There's no reason for you to be thinking about the bedroom of a teenage boy, straight or otherwise.

boymom

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:59 am

In regard to being 'bullied and ostracized' in a shul or community: my opinion is that people are guilty of all sorts of aveiros. we all know who the gossiper in shul is, we know of the men that show up to davening when it's over, and we even know of the men and women that tend to uh be inappropriate with each other. everyone has their nisyanos, and we have no right to bully anyone about it. everyone should feel welcome in shul and community unless they are a direct threat to the safety of the people (then they belong in the local prison).

but, just as the rabbi is allowed to give a drasha and mussar about various weaknesses, whether it's talking during davening or lashan hara.... and whoever knows they need to improve will hopefully take inspiration from there, then there's no reason as to why a rabbi can't talk against being gay. he shouldn't stress on it more than he does with other topics, but no community has to "approve" gay behavior. and the gay guy should handle the mussar just like he would handle a lashon hara mussar schmooze. bottom line is, it's all the same yetzer hara, just with different costumes. yes, and he gets really creative sometimes.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:01 am

amother wrote:

I think those who are called gay, do do something, and most likely speak of it. Otherwise how would anyone know?

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:04 am

Op I'm sorry for your pain.
Just love your child unconditionally, you don't have to agree with every decision he will make but the most important thing is that his mother loves him NO MATTER WHAT!
I know of a gay teenager who committed suicide because he didn't feel loved anymore by his family.

amother

Wheat

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:06 am

amother wrote:

I am talking about once he reaches a certain age....I wasnt referring to OP's son, I was referring to gays in general...

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

It's disgusting that people who are writing on Frum (Torah Observant) Blog, about something that is anti-torah. Our Torah has an issur about Gays and Lesbian people. If someone is not following the Torah the very most it should be in private, and we don't need to know about their aveiros. I hope Im not insulting anyone, I just feel very strongly that no one even wrote this yet....

OK, jumping in before reading the rest of the thread.
Yes, acting on these impulses is anti-Torah. But we're not talking about how do you deal with an acquaintance who came out, we're talking about how to deal as a parent, or when it hits close to home. I suspect that both you and I would not be comfortable with a rabbi who, say supports gay marriage, but we would hope that treating everyone with basic respect, and appreciating that people may have to grapple and struggle with how to feel fulfilled in life while maintaining their integrity as a Torah Jew, and that that struggle should be honored too.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:14 am

amother wrote:

I agree.
Yes it dosen't feel nice. we don't do what is nice and easy in this life. we do what is right.
Yes this boy will be sad. This is the challenge of his life to overcome.
Our morals are not based on the current culture but it is torah based.

This is a greater challenge than the bully in the playground (not that playground bullies can't destroy lives, but I hope everyone knows what I mean). This is in fact THE challenge of his life, and starting now he needs support as he tries to integrate all the important parts of his identity - his s-xuality, his religion, his duties now - I'm assuming as a student and son. Pretty heavy.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:16 am

amother wrote:

no shame on you! so all high and mighty on a frum website.
You know why she is anon and rightly so because on this frum blog she does not want to be bullied by people like you for having religious jewish views.

It is possible to have this discourse in a civilized way. But since it's only possible and not probable, this thread may get locked Confused

ETA: I will not address the quote from Rav Moshe, zt"l. I think it should be removed before any zilzul to such a gadol.

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:23 am

Yes as I read on to these posts the only thought I had is that u can't be gay and call yourself religious since it's an act of sin. No matter how good and precious the gay person is God forbids it. I am sorry you going through this. You love ur son and you love God too. Nasty comments in shul exists to teach others growing up that's it's not normal or except able in our community to be gay inorder to prevent others from falling into this trap. You should not be mad at that. But you should be ashamed in front of hashem Sorry

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

I think those who are called gay, do do something, and most likely speak of it. Otherwise how would anyone know?

Being gay is a state of being, not an action verb.

It's a s-xual orientation, so they know who they are attracted to even of they've never done the act with anyone.

I hear your unstated point that it would be best if they don't talk about their status in public but sometimes there are signals that can't be helped.

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:31 am

To answer a few points floating around:

Did you know that you were straight before getting married? Probably. That is how someone knows he or she is gay without "doing" anything. How would other people know? Sometimes you can tell (or think you can tell).

It is unlikely that anyone trying to function in a frum community is "shoving" anything in anyone's face. You should not be personally offended by the fact that another person is gay, and make no assumptions about whether or not gay men are acting on certain impulses.

Frum gay men have difficult choices to make, but they are not your choices. The snarkiness I mentioned before - this is not a well-meaning friend giving guidance to someone who is facing a tremendous challenge. It is about the public acceptance of cruelty toward people regardless of their actions, because of their essential nature. I hope the OP, if she is still following this mess of a thread, is able to find a Jewish community with a more enlightened attitude, and lots of support for her son to learn how to cope with the challenges ahead.

sweetpotato

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:34 am

OP, there are modern orthodox (and probably Chabad) shuls that treat all their members with equal ahavas yisroel. You can PM me or other posters who have said the same thing for suggestions.

For people saying gay Jews should be ostracized from shul communities because of what they *might* do or not do in their personal lives only makes sense if you also force all married couples to prove they keep taharat hamishpacha, and chase them out if they don't.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:34 am

fmt4 wrote:

I reported your post. It's inaccurate, insulting, rude and insensitive to the OP. And the fact that you posted anonymously shows that you knew that it was all those things. Shame on you.

Im anonymous cuz I still want to be ur friend!

I specifically wrote I don't want to offend anyone...

However it's a Deorasah that "a man can't marry another man" So to publicly transgress that is wrong and to support someone who publicly transgresses an aveira is also wrong.