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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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amother

Seagreen

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:39 am

I'm obviously not saying that causing him pain is a mitzvah, that's also obviously an aviera. It was just bothering me that no-one mentioned this

sweetpotato

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:50 am

amother wrote:

Im anonymous cuz I still want to be ur friend!

I specifically wrote I don't want to offend anyone...

However it's a Deorasah that "a man can't marry another man" So to publicly transgress that is wrong and to support someone who publicly transgresses an aveira is also wrong.

The deoraisa is about certain s-xual acts, not marriage. Clearly a man can't halachically marry another man-- who would get the ketubah? No one is talking about that.

We're talking about frum men who are not s-xually or emotionally attracted to women and don't want to marry women. As far as you know, it's just an unmarried guy who has a male roommate who he's very close to. Who knows what specific acts they do or don't do in private? So what "public transgression" is happening? As far as I know, no one is talking about people who have s-xual relations in public.

What do you mean about "supporting someone who publicly transgresses an aveira"? What should a shul community do in the case of: a) people who have premarital s-x b) don't keep TH ? Would treating those people with basic respect and trying to be mekarev them be considered wrong?

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 11:51 am

amother wrote:

No it does not say that it is forbidden for a man to marry another man. It says it's forbidden for them to perform a certain s-xual act. Two very different things.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

I thought the issur was in the actual physical act. In which case, I've never seen anyone transgress this issur. Kissing or holding hands or whatever is not the same as zex, so I don't see how a public display of affection would be any more of a problem (for some people) than if the couple were straight.

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 12:40 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

Actually, in the Torah men often displayed physical acts of affection toward each other, including kissing and holding hands.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

By Marry I mean physically intimate. Isn't that what gays are or wanna be?

GAP

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

Yes as I read on to these posts the only thought I had is that u can't be gay and call yourself religious since it's an act of sin. No matter how good and precious the gay person is God forbids it. I am sorry you going through this. You love ur son and you love God too. Nasty comments in shul exists to teach others growing up that's it's not normal or except able in our community to be gay inorder to prevent others from falling into this trap. You should not be mad at that. But you should be ashamed in front of hashem Sorry

You absolutely can be gay and be religious. Some people are born gay. Gay is not an act, it's a state of being, a s-xual orientation. g-d created gay people. From my understanding, It usually means, you're born physically looking like a man, but you are attracted to men. I remember seeing a documentary called " trembling before g-d" that has people on it explaining how they are gay and religious. If I'm remembering correctly, Some of the people on the documentary actually did not sleep with men at all because they believed it was forbidden. but the struggle was real and they talk about it. Nasty comments in shul are never warranted nor are they helpful. People who make nasty comments to other human beings should be ashamed, not people that were born a certain way.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 12:47 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

Statistically a minority of gay male couples actually perform this act.

princessleah

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:02 pm

I'm not sure how old OP's son is, but I'm assuming a young teen. I wouldn't assume he is having s-x anymore than if a 14 year old girl in shul said, "ooh that boy over there is cute." I don't automatically assume she's taking him home for the night! She is a hormonal teenager with s-x on the brain. We've all been there and been able to control ourselves.

And nobody is shoving their lifestyle in your face by saying "I'm gay" anymore than you (collective you) are by making a big lavish wedding, hearing the word 'Betluah' repeated ad infinitum during the ceremony, going to a yichud room, etc. Then you walk around all pregnant and stuff, and your heterosexual lifestyle is LITERALLY protruding in people's faces! gross.

There is a halacha against sodomy. Agreed. Show me the halacha where it says I should be mean to someone being over a bein adam l'Makom. Show me where it says I can't be friends with someone who sins (then I would have no friends). There are always those few elderly people who drive to shul Shabbat morning, and people look away. We don't go outside as a congregation and stone them. There is no sanhedrin. The punishment for sins is not in our hands.

Shev90

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:11 pm

"Oness Rahmana Patrei

My own approach to the matter is that the Orthodox community should adopt the stance of “oness rahmana patrei” – The Merciful One overlooks what is out of a person’s control...

The principle of oness rahmana patrei originates in a case where the deed in question was physically out of the person’s control. Nevertheless, the Talmud applies it to a case where a person worships idols to save his life (b. Avodah Zarah 54a). Many medieval commentaries ask why such a case should be considered oness, since a person can always accept death rather than violate Jewish law in this way. One answer to this question has been that a person who violates a Torah rule to save his or her life is emotionally compelled to do so and that this compulsion is a form of oness. I would argue that gay Orthodox Jews, earnestly seeking the same kind of emotionally satisfying intimate relationship taken for granted by heterosexual Jews, are similarly emotionally compelled.[1]

Oness rahmana patrei has been applied over the years to a number of different cases in halakha, from permission not to move to Israel out of fear that the trip would be dangerous (Noda bi-Yehuda Tanina, EH 102), to a woman refusing to be intimate with her husband because she finds him repulsive (Tosafot Rid, Ketubot 64; R. Avraham Isaac Kook in Ezrat Kohen 55). Two precedents in particular serve as important analogies.

The first is the fact that many halakhic authorities treat suicide as an act of oness, committed under duress and consequently out of the person’s control (see, for example Arukh ha-Shulhan YD 345:5; Kol Bo al Aveilut pp. 318-321). This sensitive halakhic approach allows the family to mourn the loss of their relative without having to sully his or her memory.

More analogous to the situation of the homosexual is the case recorded in the Talmud (b. Gittin 38a) of a woman who was a partial slave, forbidden to marry either another slave or a free man. Without a religiously acceptable outlet, the woman became exceedingly promiscuous with the local men, and the rabbis forced her master to free her fully so that she could marry. In discussing this case, R. Meshulam Roth (Qol Mevasser 1:25) observes that the woman’s hopeless situation was emotionally intolerable to her, and that her behavior in this case should be considered one of oness. If anything, the situation of Orthodox homosexual Jews who wish to follow halakha is even more intolerable. If they keep this halakha, they have no hope for a loving intimate partnership, ever."

http://morethodoxy.org/2012/01.....rber/

Last edited by Shev90 on Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:11 pm

amother wrote:

By Marry I mean physically intimate. Isn't that what gays are or wanna be?

GBLT individuals (and others) don't need marriage to validate s-xual intimacy. Marriage endows couples with over one thousand legal protections and that is why marriage is important to them and their families.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:13 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Actually, in the Torah men often displayed physical acts of affection toward each other, including kissing and holding hands.

which, again, is not included in what is assur.

mom4life

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:14 pm

OP - I hope that you can find an accepting community and that your son grows up secure in your family's love with acceptance and support from your family as well as his community.

I find it abhorrent that you are dealing with this in this day and age and I hope you can find real life support to help you, but mostly that your son get through whatever bullying/teasing/homophobia he may encounter with the least amount of scars and the most amount of support. Therapy so he can accept himself might be called for as well since he may very well struggle with these feelings.

To everyone else - shame on all of you who are being so nasty to the OP who just wants support from us.

In addition, I fully support gay/lesbian people to live their lives in peace and happiness with each other. Let them get married and have children - how is that hurting you? What they do in their bedroom is none of any of our business. And yes, I am talking about frum people.

I have a very good frum gay friend who lives in fear of being fired, never getting married and struggling to raise children on his own. I have another friend who is now no longer religious because of the attitudes she has come across just trying to be herself. How is any of this okay? We need more acceptance and love in the world.

(I used to be a much more active poster, but I had so much trouble with the attitudes on this board I've become mostly a lurker/anon poster. I just couldn't stand to stay silent when I saw this thread.)

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

By Marry I mean physically intimate. Isn't that what gays are or wanna be?

then maybe you should start using the right terminology. zex does not equal marriage, and marriage does not equal zex.

esther09

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:26 pm

mille wrote:

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I highly encourage you reach out to Eshel: http://www.eshelonline.org/ If anything, it will be so so nice to have the support, I am sure. For you and your son!

It sounds like you need a community with more compassionate leadership and congregants. Probably a community lead by one of the rabbis who signed this: http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com/

It's disgusting how much of the orthodox community treats gay/lesbian Jews. I sincerely hope it gets better over time, but I am not entirely optimistic. Sad

Hugs.

To second this, one of the things I heard Eshel is collecting (though I might be wrong) is an informal "list" of communities where LGBTQ individuals will be welcomed into the community, Shuls that will function as safe havens so to speak. I don't know if anyone officially wanted it on paper anywhere for various political reasons. I know I attend one of those Shuls (whether there's a list or not, my shul is most definitely a safe haven) and I can vouch for what a difference it could make for a family like yours. Good luck, I hope that this whole experience does not drive you away from Orthodoxy overall.

Shev90

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:27 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Statistically a minority of gay male couples actually perform this act.

That is not true at all. It's none of our business anyways.

tryinghard

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:27 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

which, again, is not included in what is assur.

According to the statement quoted earlier (YU Roshei Yeshiva), yichud and any non-platonic contact IS assur.

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:32 pm

amother wrote:

I think those who are called gay, do do something, and most likely speak of it. Otherwise how would anyone know?

My teenaged daughter is not s-xually active at all. She just Knows that she is attracted to people of both genders and, I am guessing also those who are queer. She knows that should she end up in a non traditional relationship that it will be a hard row to hoe. She just is who she is.

And given that both my husband and I know that we have bisexual inclinations which we do not act on, we believe she can know what she is and isn't attracted to having never acted on it, since neither have we acted on our other inclinations.

One way or another, we have told her and we believe she understands, that no one gets her love and commitment unless they are good enough for her. And I don't mean anything by that but a good life partner who treats her as she should be treated. She will be self sufficient financially, so I don't even care if her partner has a career etc. They should be a fulfilled, happy individual who treats my daughter like the gift to this world she is.

We have not discussed this with the world around us because it is no ones business but hers. Which is also why this is anonymous.

I will just add that she came out to me, a few years ago, and that until this year, she had no idea myself or my husband also have atypical leanings. She knew we were very into each other. She was told about us because we want her to know that it is possible to have s great heterosexual marriage without indulging your inclinations. Just as people stay faithful to their spouses by choice when they are straight, so do we bisexually inclined. I'll also admit that I hope she is, in the end, attracted to a man, because her life will be so much easier if she is. We will love her regardless.

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

By Marry I mean physically intimate. Isn't that what gays are or wanna be?

So then why didn't you use the right terminology, rather than saying "marry" like you're teaching Chumash in bais yakov? Rolling Eyes

and since you obviously know very little about "what gays are or wanna be," I would stick to asking questions rather than making uneducated statements.

Miri7

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 1:53 pm

OP, my shul and community is very accepting and would welcome your family. Feel free to PM me for more details. In our community, making derogatory comments about people is just not done.

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