Apikorsos Ideologies in a Post

mo5

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 4:36 am

tichellady wrote:

That's not true. Some rabbinic laws are takanas to fix a societal issue or to protect a halakaha that is not being kept properly. Much of niddah is actually chumros that bnot yisroel accepted upon themselves, it is not Torah from Moshe at Sinai. I am not saying that observing these things is optional but then there are different levels and not everything is the same. A rabbi can be more lenient about certain laws than others depending on the origin source. There are Also debates in the Gemara about whether something is Torah from Moshe at Sinai or a later takana- so it's not all set in stone.

Just to correct -1) it was chumros bnos yisrael accepted which were accepted by the chachamim (Gemara or earlier era) and therefore becomes Halacha - so it has the same 'force' as torah
2) takonas established til the end of Gemara time to protect yiddishkeit /fix society - (Kesuba is an early example) are Halacha derabbanan (which doesn't change how we practice them, but can allow for more leniency than a de'oraisa)
3) later takkonos can be for a set time or set place

Edited: I just read til the end of the post and saw that you posted in more detail about differences later. Sorry

chani8

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:14 am

I'm sorry if I've offended you, OP, and others, with my apikorsis comments. I dont think it's apikorsis, but I know that you do, and I do cringe when I write those things, knowing it hurts some of you, my imamother friends. But my need to speak my truth overrides my empathy. I sincerely apologize.

I am not trying to corrupt anyone. I am coming at it from the opposite way. I use/d this seeming apikorsis mentality to keep loved ones from going OTD and to strengthen ahavas yisroel.

For example, when we talk skirt length, rather than calling a frum woman a slut, I want to say, she's not over a d'oraisa, so let her be. Not because I wear miniskirts or am promoting it in any way. I know the bottom line d'oraisa halacha, and those women have a right to know it. We need to know it so that we dont judge and hate. Simple.

When a woman says she wants to throw TH away because the 7 days are too difficult, I want to let her know that it's not all or nothing. She could throw the 7 white days away if she keeps the 7 Torah days. Dont throw it all out. Dont give up on G-d and Torah just because of halachos that are not even d'rabbonon. You want to argue against me, call me apikorsis, but if this was seriously the difference between a woman keeping TH or not, don't you want her to keep the very bottom line?? I count on you all to balance me out, but let me have my two cents so that in case she is one of these fence walkers, let her know there is another way. Better than your agenda pushing her off the fence completely. Which is how most orthodoxy presents itself, as all or nothing, when it is not so.

By the time someone is giving up on d'rabbonons, they are almost too far OTD. Which is what I think you are saying, Boymom. And I agree. That is why, it's important to distinguish between d'rabbonons and minhagim, for example. It matters when those halachot were decided upon, which rabbonon called the specific halacha in question. Not everything is a d'rabbonon, and with a clear perspective on it, you may save a person from going too far, dropping it all, because they think disagreeing with current rabbonim is the same as being over a d'rabbonon. The red line for d'rabbonons is sanhedrin. That goes back quite far. Anything after that is negotiable, in many MO opinions.. Clearly not according to charedi hashkafa.

We cannot see the imamothers to know their hashkafa. So sometimes they get answers that are not in accordance with their sect. They have to be adult enough to know who to listen to. That is the fear the rabbonon these days have for you, that you cannot be online with your big girl pants on. That apikorsis will ruin you. Are you capable of learning other people's opinions and not allowing that to bring you down in your yiddishkeit? If not, then of course, ban those who disagree with you. Oh wait, if you are that frum, you aren't supposed to be online. I'm teasing now.

You can disagree with me at any time on those threads, but dont silence me. The world has a right to know there is more than one way. When I became frum, it was given to me in small doses. Had I known that orthodox halacha was so extreme, I would never have become frum. In the big world, not having s-x for 7 red days is already very extreme, for example. This is a wonderful frum site, and being more tolerant increases ahavas yisroel. Which is a goal, isn't it?

mo5

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:42 am

chani8 wrote:

When a woman says she wants to throw TH away because the 7 days are too difficult, I want to let her know that it's not all or nothing. She could throw the 7 white days away if she keeps the 7 Torah days. Dont throw it all out. Dont give up on G-d and Torah just because of halachos that are not even d'rabbonon. You want to argue against me, call me apikorsis, but if this was seriously the difference between a woman keeping TH or not, don't you want her to keep the very bottom line??

.....And I agree. That is why, it's important to distinguish between d'rabbonons and minhagim, for example. It matters when those halachot were decided upon, which rabbonon called the specific halacha in question. Not everything is a d'rabbonon, and with a clear perspective on it, you may save a person from going too far, dropping it all, because they think disagreeing with current rabbonim is the same as being over a d'rabbonon. The red line for d'rabbonons is sanhedrin. That goes back quite far. Anything after that is negotiable, in many MO opinions.. Clearly not according to charedi hashkafa.

I have never questioned your motives, but I'm not really sure you're being halachic ally accurate.
1) waiting only 7 days would be if she knows for sure the difference between zava and nidda- which is a timing thing 2) the treating nidda and zabla the same IS derabbonon- from Mishna or earlier - I need to check(Whether you have to wait 5 even if you stop bleeding earlier is a later takana and could possibly be argued- but not the premise of waiting 7 after bleeding stopped)
so I'm not sure that nowadays you could say that bottom line is ok if someone waits 7. I don't know of any rabbonim who would pasken that way- and rabbonim can be very lenient if they are very knowledgeable.
3) not sure where Sanhedrin is the end of derabbonon (or depends what you consider the end of the Sanhedrin) mishna and much of Gemara times is still derabaonon

leah233

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 2:30 pm

chani8 wrote:

I dont know anything about the conservative. But I do know that it's very basic to ahavas yisroel to find a way to judge favorably (about skirt lengths), and it's a well known shitta on how to handle people going OTD (to acquiesce to leniencies).

chani8 wrote:

I dont know anything about the conservative.

They are basically a dying OTD group that started with the philosophy of letting certain D'Rabonons not be kept so people will be able to observe Judaism.

But I do know that it's very basic to ahavas yisroel to find a way to judge favorably (about skirt lengths),

Judging people favorbly has no connection to telling them not to keep Halacha. (Why are skirt lengths being stressed in this?)

and it's a well known shitta on how to handle people going OTD (to acquiesce to
leniencies).

Really? Can you tell me any respected Posek from any community that has that in writing for me to pursue further?

mille

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 2:39 pm

leah233 wrote:

That is the conservative movements position.This is an orthodox site and all posters should respect that.

Chani's point is that it is ridiculous to throw the baby out with the bathwater (from my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong, Chani!). Is it better to do SOMETHING rather than NOTHING? Probably. If you are going to eat at a non-kosher restaurant, is it better to eat something that can potentially be kosher (e.g. a salad, ice cream etc) or should you just go "Well, this place is totally treif, might as well eat the chicken parmesan!"? No one is arguing that eating at the treif restaurant is acceptable via halacha. But it's about making a conscious decision to try to do the best you can - even if the best you can still falls short of halacha. Because maybe, next time, the best you can do is better than last time.

I imagine it would be very difficult to give up counting any length of days and just stop keeping taharat hamishpacha totally, and then try to go back to doing ALL of it - 14 bedikot and all. At least, compared to if you stopped doing 14 bedikot but instead did 7, or didn't count 5+7 but counted 4+7 according to sefardi opinion, or counted some other way. IMO the person who cuts back but doesn't cut it out is probably more likely begin doing something the halachic way at some point than someone who is told "No, that is not halacha, halacha is X and that's that" and therefore gives it up because "X" was too hard.

Just my thoughts. No one should take ANY halachic advice from a website, imamother or any other. Take halachic advice from a rabbi, not a website, and let the website stay as a source of women venting their frustrations and candidly sharing their difficulties, even if those difficulties include less-than-halachic practice.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 2:47 pm

leah233 wrote:

Really? Can you tell me any respected Posek from any community that has that in writing for me to pursue further?

I'm not comfortable with the seven clean days discussion so I won't use that as example but let me give you an example you might appreciate.
Someone is in a community where covering hair is the norm but can't bring herself to do that. I know personally and of women who had a harder time with that than taharas hamishpacha. So her more RW posek might say, you know, there is an opinion our community doesn't follow that says that yes, the hair should be covered, but only the hair on the scalp. So try covering with a bandana or a cap and see if you can handle it.
Now maybe this isn't a perfect example because the woman's not going OTD, she might be going the other way but has hit a wall. How about a kid whose family keeps CY but s/he's kind of OTD so eats CS instead, even though this is not consistent with her family and rav?

mille

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:01 pm

tichellady wrote:

This is also the position of chabad and other kiruv organizations. Encourage people to do mitvzot even if they don't do them all, or to do some part of a mitzvah even if not all of it. Everyone needs to start somewhere and we don't say " you can't wear tefilin because you don't keep kosher" or " you can't light shabbos candles because you don't go to the Mikvah" or " you should eat shellfish because you still eat pork".

For Chabad, there's an even better example. They will encourage you to light Shabbos candles even if you will immediately go watch TV after. Better to do one mitzvah than to do zero mitzvot, right? It's the same thing - better to avoid mixing meat and milk even if you are eating something not kosher to begin with. Better to avoid s-x with your husband during certain days, even if you don't do bedikot before going to the mikvah, vs just having s-x all the time. Even emotionally and spiritually I would argue it's better to do something rather than nothing. It fosters a connection to Judaism that would otherwise be lacking. Especially in today's society with so much intermarriage and Jews having zero religious connection, let's work to foster the connections that exist rather than putting people down for not doing it our way.

tichellady

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:04 pm

I honestly don't even understand this argument. If you can't handle hearing that not everyone keeps halakaha perfectly then how do you deal with yourself and interacting with others? I see people sinning all the time, whether it be ritual sin or embarrassing others or Loshon hara or talking in shul or swearing etc. I think we all agree that no one should use this site to convince others to sin and leave Judaism, but I don't see that here. I see people admitting to things they find challenging and struggle with. Because they happen to be ritual sins not interpersonal everyone freaks out. If the poster said that sometimes she can't handle her mom and just yells at her no one would say " you can't post her because you transgressed kivub em, you are trying to confuse us all into thinking that we can all yell at our moms". Life is complicated and we all have sechel. Use it. If you are unsure if something is ok or not talk to your rabbi or yoetzet. If reading about sin makes me you uncomfortable then don't even read the Torah or navi because it's full of people messing up and rationalizing it!

Seas

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 4:27 pm

Several people have written things to the effect of, "If the choice is between someone keeping Shabbos only from the morning or not keeping it at all*, MY belief (or alternatively, 'If you'd ask ME') is rather let them at least keep the minimum min hatorah."

Excuse me, but who are you to decide? What right do you have over Hashem's Torah? How pretentious does one have to be to think she can make compromises with the Absolute Truth and Eternal Word of Hashem?

Either keep the Torah (in which case you'll get s'char) or don't (in which case you'll get punished), but under no circumstances may anyone corrupt or falsify the Torah.

*I'm purposefully not using an actual example so as not to make this personal against any specific amother.

tichellady

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 4:40 pm

Seas wrote:

Excuse me, but who are you to decide? What right do you have over Hashem's Torah? How pretentious does one have to be to think she can make compromises with the Absolute Truth and Eternal Word of Hashem?

Either keep the Torah (in which case you'll get s'char) or don't (in which case you'll get punished), but under no circumstances may anyone corrupt or falsify the Torah.

*I'm purposefully not using an actual example so as not to make this personal against any specific amother.

I think what you said can apply to you! Who says you get to decide that it's a take it or all package. Are you telling us that the Lubavitcher rebbe corrupted the Torah when he encouraged all Jewish women to light shabbos candles? Or that Rav Ovadia Yoseph was wrong in trying to encourage maximal observance of mitvzot among secular Israelis by trying to make as much food in Israel kosher? You are saying very harmful and hateful comments that don't have much basis in modern halakha. You have decided it's a take it all or leave it package, but fortunately for us all you are not a modern Jewish leader who gets to create policy!

Seas

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 4:54 pm

tichellady wrote:

There are two distinctly different things. One is encouraging people to keep as many mitzvos as possible with the idea behind it that every mitzvoh is...well, a mitzvoh. The other is telling people, 'it's ok if you at least keep the mitzvoh in your own way'. This is corruption of the Torah and offering compromises where you haven't got the autority to do so.

(for example telling someone to just take the beef option in Mcdonalds and let them think they're at least doing 'something'.)

leah233

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 4:59 pm

tichellady wrote:

I do not believe the LR or ROY ever explicitly told people to only keep certain Mitzvohs.They were trying to encourage people who were keeping NO Mitzvos to keep some. I do not believe that had they been asked explicitly "Can I drop this D"Rabonon?If you don't let me I will stop keeping other Mitzvahs too" they would have answered yes without extenuating circumstances.