Who makes kiddush when dh is not home?

amother

Mustard

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:01 pm

DH will be away for the next couple of shabbosim and when DS (who is 11) heard, his first question was " can I make kiddush?"

I know this is common that boys (especially after they're bar mitzvah) make kiddush/havdala if there's no male present (temporarily or permanently) but I am really uncomfortable with it.

I am the head of the household (we can talk about why it's okay for DH to make kiddush/havdala when he's home another day), certainly when DH is not home, and the idea of a 11 or 12 or even 15 or 18 year old making kiddush/havdala just because he's a male, instead of me, because I'm not a male. . .just doesn't sit well with me.

(And yes, I have some "issues" about the "woman's role in Orthodox Judaism". . .)

Okay, so, what are your thoughts in general and in specific. I really don't want to let him make kiddush/havdala, am I being an evil mother if I say no? Oh, and for convenience sake, because it would make no difference to what I would want to do, let's pretend he's over bar mitzvah.

agreer

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:14 pm

Just so you know, there's a big difference between kiddish and havdalah. For Havdalah, it's preferable that it be done by a male. But since he's not over B"M yet, I don't know if that still applies. If he were, no doubt it would be better for him to make it.

For kiddush, no diff whether male or female (but I do believe there is a difference between a kotton and a gadol). Since this "riles" you, you should make it.

However, I am very comfortable with the differences between men and women in yeshivish/orthodox judaism, so I would think it is wonderful chinuch/training to have your teenage son make kiddish "for the family".

thunderstorm

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:16 pm

It's actually a shailah that your Rav could answer. I grew up in a single mother home so my mother made kiddush for us, but as soon as we had a bar mitzvah boy the bar mitzvah boy made the kiddush. Havdalah is even a bigger shailah...a woman is not supposed to make havdalah lichatchila and therefore we would go to a neighbor to hear havdalah every week.
My DH actually has my boys making havdalah in my home now (post bar mitzvah) even though he is there, he just doesnt like drinking grape juice or wine then...so you should really ask your rabbi.

Last edited by thunderstorm on Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:18 pm

I believe it is a guys Mitzvah to do these 'tasks' (once of age). My father has my little brothers making kiddush from a young age but adds some of his grape juice to the mix so they are still Yotzeh with his.
Looking at it from a mothers point of view, I would be happy and proud of my son if he were able to fulfill this mitzvah -I would take pride and joy in it! Yes a woman is able to make kiddush and havdalah.... but if a guy is around why not let them do it?! Like lighting candles -it's a woman's mitzvah but if no woman around then a guy lights his own candles!
Maybe it's just the way your son sees things.. Just as this is coming from you kind of being a feminist, maybe your son picked up on a thing or two and thinks he is 'above' the opposite gender. As of now he is not of age yet so I don't believe it really matters if one or the other does it So you as a parent, do have the upper hand. Maybe educate your child in the matter of this 'issue/ topic'.
We all have our Purpose in this world. Women with women things and Men with men things! We are here because G-d wills it. Wouldn't it be proper to respect our place and such.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:19 pm

agreer wrote:

I am well aware of the difference (halachically) between kiddush and havdala. To me personally, it makes no difference whatsoever and I don't want him making either. Crying

Re the bolded. . . what is wonderful about this chinuch?

I have a daughter who is a year older than him. What message am I sending her? Or am giving her the chinuch of making kiddush and havdala as well?

water_bear88

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:20 pm

You may have a d'oraita obligation in Friday night kiddush, so no, he can't be motzi you until he's bar mitzva. I think there may be more room with havdala or daytime kiddush, with the latter in particular if you already heard it at shul and he's just doing the one at the meal. But absolutely AYLOR before letting him do it.

By us, Dh makes Friday night kiddush and I do Hamozti. Usually we do the same in the day, though then sometimes I prefer to swap if he heard it in shul.

I think there is a kibbud eim issue here- you are the head of household with your husband absent, not your son. If someday when he's grown you go to visit him, it would be appropriate for him to make kiddush. If he were bar mitzva already and you either preferred not to do it or would happily do it but wanted to teach him*, I think it would be reasonable to let him do it.

*Separate brief rant on my part- men who were clearly never taught the importance of enunciating when they are being motzi others with a bracha. I think this issue is important enough that I would "defer" to my teenager (actually, of either gender) occasionally to make sure they learn this point before they're out of my tuition.

Sadie

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 3:20 pm

We don't have kids yet, but my husband makes kiddush on Friday nights and I make it on Shabbat morning. If we had kids old enough to be interested then I would probably let them take turns doing it sometimes, but it's important to me that my future children have the experience of hearing me make kiddush regularly.

agreer

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:43 pm

amother wrote:

I am well aware of the difference (halachically) between kiddush and havdala. To me personally, it makes no difference whatsoever and I don't want him making either. Crying

Seriously? You don't see the difference between men and women, girls and boys?

Are you going to have your son light shabbos candles as well? I'm not saying men can't, but it is definitely a woman's mitzvah.

If you let your son make kiddish/havdalah (when he's over bar mitzvah) for the family, then the message that you will be sending your daughter is that men and women have different duties, and that's okay. (Seems like you did not get that message, which is why you are having such a hard time with this very traditional concept.)

gittelchana

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

If he's 11, he can't make Kiddush for you because you are obligated in Kiddush and he is a Katan.

I still think he should make Kiddush even when your husband is home. He should do it as practice - Chinuch.

While your husband is away, you should make Kiddush and have him make Kiddush after you.

You don't specify what your issue is with the role of women in Judaism.

gittelchana

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

I am well aware of the difference (halachically) between kiddush and havdala. To me personally, it makes no difference whatsoever and I don't want him making either. Crying

Being that Halacha says that a woman shouldn't make Havdalla Lichatchila and the very wide spread custom for thousands of years has always been that the men make Kiddush as well, you gotta ask yourself whether your being uncomfortable comes from a holy place or whether it comes from feminism.....

I suspect this is emanating from the influence of feminism. In this case, your sentiment is clearly not in line with Halacha and Minhag. I understand the struggle. We all struggle with something. Some things are easier to accept than others. But if we can identify where our struggle comes from, we can work on shifting perspective in the right direction.

Hatzlacha!

Tablepoetry

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 6:09 pm

gittelchana wrote:

you gotta ask yourself whether your being uncomfortable comes from a holy place or whether it comes from feminism.....

Just a general comment - not specific to this thread -
feminism and 'holy place' are not necessarily an oxymoron.

gittelchana

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 6:19 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Just a general comment - not specific to this thread -
feminism and 'holy place' are not necessarily an oxymoron.

I never said they were.

Feminism isn't a holy thing. It also isn't necessarily unholy either.

In the case of OP, feminism has led her to take issue with a certain Halacha and Minhag. It therefore isn't holy in this situation.

Tablepoetry

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 6:37 pm

gittelchana wrote:

Halacha is one thing. Minhag is another. Sometimes there are more 'holy' considerations than tradition (and equality could, at times, be one of them).

Again - my words are not directed towards this specific instance, just a general observation. It is not always 'unholy' to try to change a minhag that may be hurtful in our cultural context.

animeme

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 7:49 pm

I know houses where everyone who wishes makes kiddush, one after the other. Could you make kiddush for the family at large, and then he has his turn, and can give to everyone as well? When dh is home, he could make kiddush, followed by your dd and then ds, if that's what they want. Actually, what does dd want?

I know one house where the father always says kiddush, because of some of the ideas mentioned above, and the mother always makes hamotzi for everyone, because to my knowledge there no specific issues other than tradition. (Not to be belittled but not halachic either. Btw, do you daven maariv/kabalas Shabbos? I believe that's relevant to the kiddush and havdalah discussions.)

I do think it's lovely for your ds to feel a desire to step into this role of responsibility.

2cents

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 8:03 pm

A Katan is not obligated for the mitzvah and can't make thr bracha for someone who is obligated (in this case, you and your 12 me year old daughter).

There actually is a halachic question in the rishonim that it may be preferable for a woman who has not davened maariv to make kiddush instead of her husband, who presumably has davened maariv, because he has already given aidus (testimony) when he said 'vayichulu' in davening, whereas she has not and therefore has a bigger obligation. (I believe the conclusion is that although this is technically true, it's not b'tznius so the man should make kiddush, notwithstanding other circumstance.)

doctorima

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 8:26 pm

As other have said, in this case you are correct because he's under Bar Mitzvah, so he can't be motzee you in your obligations. But if he would be 13, he would be justified and correct in wanting to do so, and Judaism does involve different roles and functions for different genders, ages, yichus (Kohen, Levi, Yisroel, etc.), and our job is to accept how Hashem wants us to serve Him.

sweetpotato

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 8:30 pm

He's not yet a bar mitzvah, non-issue. If you're comfortable with it, tell him he can make his own kiddush, but you (or your bat-mitzvah aged daughter) need to make kiddush on behalf of the family. Sometimes halacha solves our problems very simply Smile