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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
Who makes kiddush when dh is not home?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 29 2016, 7:48 am
I'm not progressive. I don't feel good doing kiddush, and I know because once I had to. My mother, who was there too, did havdalla and kept repeating sorry I don't do it well, I'm not a man. My phd, pants, high level job mother. Left us feeling alone and unfeminine and displaced.
Better anyone male than me, as long as halachically correct. In retrospect we should have gone down to neighbour. I know it's not the popular opinion in the Anglo world outside of the chairedim and I don't care.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Fri, Jan 29 2016, 8:56 am
Ruchel wrote:
I'm not progressive. I don't feel good doing kiddush, and I know because once I had to. My mother, who was there too, did havdalla and kept repeating sorry I don't do it well, I'm not a man. My phd, pants, high level job mother. Left us feeling alone and unfeminine and displaced.
Better anyone male than me, as long as halachically correct. In retrospect we should have gone down to neighbour. I know it's not the popular opinion in the Anglo world outside of the chairedim and I don't care.


I'm OP and I believe you that you and your mom feel inadequate making havdala and kiddush but I don't. I make a beautiful kiddush and havdala (if I may say so myself. . . )
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 29 2016, 9:11 am
in my home the boys say kiddush & the girls light shabbos candles from age 3 ... a nice minhag/mitzva

however, I would never be yotzei a kid ... and as a divorced woman used to making my own kiddush I barely like being yotzei another man

for chinuch purposes I would also refrain from having any boy think they were the man of the house - they would have to grow into that role in their own home

I do enjoy a community home where girls take turns making kiddush or cutting the challah for hamotzie
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:36 am
5mom wrote:
Yes, Chazal do say that (gemara in Brachos and Sukkah) but it doesn't change the halacha. They are saying that it's shameful for a man not to know how to make his own brachos. I imagine that we all agree.

Chazal did not say that women should not make their own brachos. If you eat a tuna sandwich, do you wait for your husband to come home to bentch for you? No, you fulfill your obligation, at whatever level.


I didn't see anyone insinuate what you write in your second paragraph. Going extreme to make a point?
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 29 2016, 11:07 am
5mom wrote:
...

Chazal did not say that women should not make their own brachos. If you eat a tuna sandwich, do you wait for your husband to come home to bentch for you? No, you fulfill your obligation, at whatever level.


gittelchana wrote:
I didn't see anyone insinuate what you write in your second paragraph. Going extreme to make a point?


but that is the comparaible assumption - to the point that women rely on men & become crippled if they are not near one to make them kiddush or havdalah or whathaveyous
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baba




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 2:20 pm
amother wrote:
I'm OP and this post is spot on. I was not asking about halachos (which I believe I mentioned in a later post, I am familiar with).

We learnt this in dept once and came to the conclusion that women have the same obligation as men and therefore could be yotzei a man. I wondered why then it has become popular and more accepted for women to make hamotzi, but not kiddush. Still not sure bout that one.

Anyway, what I'm saying is, even halachically it's probably still fine for you to do it if your son is over BM.

I recently was alone a few times Friday evening and the first time my kids wondered who was going to make kidush. I said, me of course. It did feel a little weird, but I didnt let that show. I want my kids to know it's totally normal that I should be the one to say it.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 6:45 pm
chani8 wrote:
They would curse someone for that? shock


I don't know. What
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 6:53 pm
greenfire wrote:
but that is the comparaible assumption - to the point that women rely on men & become crippled if they are not near one to make them kiddush or havdalah or whathaveyous


Really?

If you put in like that, then yea.... I guess so....

But you don't have to view it that way.

When we hear Kiddush or Havdalla or whatever from our husbands it isn't a crippling type of reliance at all. This is the way we do things. This is the way they've been done for thousands of years.

Is a husband crippled in his reliance on his wife to light the Shabbos candles (he's obligation), to ensure the food she cooks for him is kosher (also his obligation) or to ensure that DW did all the Bedikos properly (it has a serious impact on him ya know)?

I think that we can agree that a husband who'd even try with these things would be considered overbearing, pushy and somewhat creepy. So why is it different in the reverse?
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 7:01 pm
gittelchana wrote:
Really?

If you put in like that, then yea.... I guess so....

But you don't have to view it that way.

When we hear Kiddush or Havdalla or whatever from our husbands it isn't a crippling type of reliance at all. This is the way we do things. This is the way they've been done for thousands of years.

Is a husband crippled in his reliance on his wife to light the Shabbos candles (he's obligation), to ensure the food she cooks for him is kosher (also his obligation) or to ensure that DW did all the Bedikos properly (it has a serious impact on him ya know)?

I think that we can agree that a husband who'd even try with these things would be considered overbearing, pushy and somewhat creepy. So why is it different in the reverse?


As I pointed out, in a similar situation, when the wife is not home for shabbos and there's a teen daughter in the house, typically, the husband would light (in a household where unmarried girls don't light on a regular basis), and not the 13 year old. I don't think he'd be considered overbearing, pushy, and somewhat creepy for doing that.

That's all I'm asking for here. To make kiddush/havdala/whatever in DH's absence, instead of my 13 year old son.
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:05 pm
amother wrote:
As I pointed out, in a similar situation, when the wife is not home for shabbos and there's a teen daughter in the house, typically, the husband would light (in a household where unmarried girls don't light on a regular basis), and not the 13 year old. I don't think he'd be considered overbearing, pushy, and somewhat creepy for doing that.

That's all I'm asking for here. To make kiddush/havdala/whatever in DH's absence, instead of my 13 year old son.


Where I come from, typically the 13 year old girl would light. Not the husband.

When I used those adjectives, it was more about the second and even more about the third example.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:02 pm
gittelchana wrote:

When we hear Kiddush or Havdalla or whatever from our husbands it isn't a crippling type of reliance at all. This is the way we do things. This is the way they've been done for thousands of years.


we are discussing in the absence of a husband or when one spouse is out of town

heck think of those men who forget to come home from shul ... do you expect the women and children to starve or make kiddush
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 12:48 am
greenfire wrote:

for chinuch purposes I would also refrain from having any boy think they were the man of the house - they would have to grow into that role in their own home



This.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 12:55 am
Ruchel wrote:
I'm not progressive. I don't feel good doing kiddush, and I know because once I had to. My mother, who was there too, did havdalla and kept repeating sorry I don't do it well, I'm not a man. My phd, pants, high level job mother. Left us feeling alone and unfeminine and displaced.
Better anyone male than me, as long as halachically correct. In retrospect we should have gone down to neighbour. I know it's not the popular opinion in the Anglo world outside of the chairedim and I don't care.
Ruchel, your post made me really sad. I am not progressive at all either. I am not one of those MO women who want to do everything that a man does in judaism, but that being said, if my husband would not be home for whatever reason and I had to make kiddush, I would just do it. it does not have to become this big thing. Why does saying kiddush have to make you feel less feminine? To me that is very sad. If there is no man there, then you do what you have to do. Thats all.
My grandmother lost her husband when my mother was very young. No boys at home. She didnt go downstairs to a neighbor every shabbat. She made kiddush. It didnt make her less feminine. It was just something she had to do.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 4:55 am
Ruchel wrote:
I'm not progressive. I don't feel good doing kiddush, and I know because once I had to. My mother, who was there too, did havdalla and kept repeating sorry I don't do it well, I'm not a man. My phd, pants, high level job mother. Left us feeling alone and unfeminine and displaced.
Better anyone male than me, as long as halachically correct. In retrospect we should have gone down to neighbour. I know it's not the popular opinion in the Anglo world outside of the chairedim and I don't care.

Maybe your mother's evaluation of her havdala skills came from lack of experience, not from her gender?
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 6:58 am
I have heard that if a women makes havdalah it is preferable to have a male over age 5 drink the wine. If one is not available she can drink the wine.

I've never heard an issue with kiddush.
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harriet




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:33 am
amother wrote:
I have heard that if a women makes havdalah it is preferable to have a male over age 5 drink the wine. If one is not available she can drink the wine.

I've never heard an issue with kiddush.


What is the source and/or reason for that?
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gittelchana




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 8:13 am
greenfire wrote:
we are discussing in the absence of a husband or when one spouse is out of town



Yes. I know. I think I did tell OP to make Kiddush in my original post on this matter.

I was responding to your somewhat outlandish remark where you were trying to explain how not making Kiddush is somehow crippling. So I brought examples of the reverse. That's all.
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chaos




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 10:26 am
OP, I totally understand where you are coming from haskafically. My husband and I also have a lot of issues with the gender roles, and particularly for kiddush, we have never understood or accepted how if men and women are both obligated, why the woman cannot make kiddush for a man. In fact, in our home, it is quite common for me to make kiddush for my husband and I. So I absolutely identify with the opinion of I am the wife, I am the head of the household, and I should be making kiddush for the household.

That said, it sounds like your son is really excited about making kiddush and stifling his excitement with a flat out no sounds very discouraging from a chinuch perspective. I think a better idea is for you to make kiddush for yourself and any other children who do not want to make kiddush for themselves, and then for your son to make kiddush for himself. If you have any other children who would like to make kiddush for themselves (like your Bat Mitzvah age daughter perhaps), they should. And I think that the kids making kiddush for themselves could be a good training opportunity and tradition to continue even after your husband comes back.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 10:32 am
My dh's been away couple times. When my boys we're below bar mitzva age, I made kiddush, havdala was always an issue if I stayed home. Once they reached bar mitzva it was a lot easier as they made kiddush and havdala.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 31 2016, 5:05 pm
gittelchana wrote:

I was responding to your somewhat outlandish remark where you were trying to explain how not making Kiddush is somehow crippling. So I brought examples of the reverse. That's all.


OUTLANDISH - the only outlandish thing is you saying it's outlandish for women not wanting to have to run through the streets trying to find someone else to make kiddush for them
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