For those who sell chometz gamur over Pesach

etky

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 4:57 am

chani8 wrote:

I understand why it was instituted by I also know that 'big ravs' allow, even encourage, poor people to sell their chometz gamor without fear, with no shame, with full protection from this sale.

Very understandable because for a poor person the loss of any food constitutes a great financial loss.

5mom

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 6:24 am

chani8 wrote:

For those of you criticizing the sale, you apparently dont hold by rabbonim? Is that not chutzpah? I may be chutzpah but I hold by the sale. It's very simple. If rabbonim can force stringencies, they can surely provide 'loopholes'.

First, I wasn't criticizing the sale. And chas ve-chalila that I do not accept the word of rabbanim. Anyone can say assur, but it takes a talmid chacham with broad shoulders to issue a heter. Selling chametz is permitted by major poskim. It is absolutely permitted.

That said, I can choose not to avail myself of this loophole. I can balance the cost and inconvenience of getting rid of all chametz versus the fear of accidentally owning chametz on Pesach, and decide not to sell.

I would not impose my choice on others, nor would I say that they are doing anything anything wrong. They are acting within the halachic system and so am I.

I guess I was not clear enough with respect to the OP. What I meant to say is that she has a particular use intended for some of the chametz ,that it is not totally interchangeable, then it would be worth asking if that kind of chametz can be sold.

chani8

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 8:46 am

5mom, I used to be very uncomfortable with these heters, too, so I get it. But when we share our uncomfortableness, I think we risk insulting those who need to rely on them.

Worse, they may suffer guilt and shame and fear, causing them to not rely on the heter to their detriment, chas v'shalom. You know how people get so nervous around pesach.

So that is why I challenged 'you' (general you) for minimizing this heter. Everyone does it except the most stringent (and BT! lol). Everyone does it to varying degrees. And it is totally, completely, halachically supervised, legal, and valid.

lfab

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:04 am

amother wrote:

Would you proactively challah or buy bread to have in the freezer for after Pesach? That's really the question here. I'm going to be asking our rav anyway, but now I'm curious.

Yes. I specifically make sure that I have at least a loaf of bread, some cereal, and some pasta in the house for after pesach. I do it so I don't have to worry about running out right after pesach to do a shopping trip when the stores are jam packed and there's nothing on the shelves anyway. Also I do a lot of cooking ahead. If I wanted to try to use up as much as possible I would have to already start planning and using stuff up. And for weeks before and after pesach my family wouldn't eat normally as I would not be able to replace everything quickly. My husband is ok with this as his parents always did this so they wouldn't have to worry about getting chometz after pesach. They live OOT and it wasn't so easy for them to get chometz that had been sold over pesach.

amother

Gray

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:46 am

After discussing this with my DH who refuses to ask a shaila, we came to the conclusion that whatever I already made without the clear understanding of the technicalities, I will either use up or not before pesach and sell what's left over. I should not make now things that will l'chatchilla be for after Pesach. For example, I made kneidlach for the next 8 weeks or so. I was going to make another double batch to have for after pesach too, but now I won't. Same with challos.

DH also said that if it is important for my state of mind to have these things ready for after Pesach, I can do it anyway.

sky

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:19 pm

We sell chametz gamur (we actually make an exact itemized list of every item we are selling with the value of each item - family minhag - it takes so long sometimes I wish we just threw it all out).

My BIL got married immediately after Pesach. The family baked everything for the aufruf before. MIL was nervous that it wasn't okay because she would be upset if the non-Jew bought it, so it wasn't a true sale. Rav said that the non-Jew pays you for it, so if he does buy it you can just go to the store and purchase the same food with the money he gave you. It is valid to do and no problem. So that is what we did, we baked and cooked everything in advance.

We buy sale items before Pesach, as long as it gets on my list to sell we consider it okay.

gittelchana

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:24 pm

5mom wrote:

I'm not delegitimizing this. It's a legitimate loophole. The question is how much we want to rely on a loophole when we are dealing with an issur kares. In the case of bakeries and stores, we are talking about a major financial loss, and Chazal were sensitive to that.

By calling it a loophole you're de-legitimizing it.

It's not a loophole. It's a Lechatchila.

True, the sale of Chametz began as a way to save Jewish food companies from big losses. But over time, it was developed to the point that it isn't a loophole at all, rather, it's a very serious and legitimate sale.

That's why we use an Arev Kablan. Please look up the Alter Rebbe's method of selling Chametz through an Arev Kablan.

5mom

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 2:31 pm

gittelchana wrote:

Selling chametz is a bedieved to avoid financial loss. If I have no chametz left before Pesach, I don't have to go out and buy some to sell.

There's nothing wrong with loopholes. Chazal were empowered to create these mechanisms. They are totally and completely legitimate. (And I know what an arev kablan is, thanks.)

But just because I am allowed to sell chametz doesn't mean that I am obligated to do so.

Last edited by 5mom on Sat, Jan 30 2016, 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

gittelchana

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:43 pm

5mom wrote:

That isn't the definition of Bedieved.

You have Chametz in your house because you're allowed to eat Chametz. No Bedieved there.

Now the question is, what to do when Pesach arrives. The answer to this question is the definition of Lichatchila which is the word Techila - beginning - with a prefix. So what shall you do? Eat it all up or otherwise get rid of it, or can you also sell it as an equally valid option?

The answer is - if you use a sale with an Arev Kablan (as I mentioned earlier) you can sell it as your Lichatchila option. You don't have any need to bother trying to get rid of it all.

The use of the term Bedieved in this case would be to say that you really need to get rid of all your Chametz, but if you can't, you can also sell as your second best option. This isn't true.

5mom

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:31 pm

gittelchana wrote:

Yes, it is true that you need to get rid of your chametz. Some people sell it to get to that point.

I'm not sure why you are arguing about the terminology. We don't have a mitzvah to sell chametz. We have a mitzvah to remove it from our homes. What if you still have chametz? Then you have moved into bedieved territory.

A sale is a legal fiction that allows us not to get rid of chametz, even though that's what we have been commanded, by taking it out of our possession. It's the same way that an eruv is a legal fiction that allows us to convert a public space into a private one. Totally legal and aboveboard.

If I don't have anything to carry, I don't have to use the eruv. It's not a mitzvah to carry stuff just because I can. If I need the eruv, I can use it.

A sale with an arev kablan is a very strong sale. No one is saying otherwise. But if I don't need it I am not going to take advantage. Why does that bother you so much?

amother

Olive

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:37 pm

I didn't read all replies so I Don't know what was said. OP, I would think you are not allowed to actively bake and prepare foods for after pesach. I know of people who wanted to buy chometz stuff before pesach because it was really good sale, but were told they were not allowed to, even though they sell chometz.

cbsp

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 11:56 am

mo5 wrote:

Most flour around nowadays is chametz because it is processed with water.

My husband is a mashgiach for several flour mills.

This is actually a major machlokes.
The kernels are "tempered" in water for 16 hours. The question is whether that causes it to become chametz.

Rabbi Heineman of the Star K holds that even those that don't sell chometz gamur are allowed to sell flour.

There are other poskim that disagree with Rabbi Heineman's position.

Everyone holds, though, that this flour may not be used on pesach (for matzos), the question is whether it's chometz gamur or not. I believe the Star K has a discussion about this on their website.