SPINOFF Trip with Male Boss

marina

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 2:41 am

I didn't want to hijack, so here's my spinoff. Those people who go out of their way to maintain strict boundaries, are you doing it because you genuinely don't trust yourself or the other person, or just because that's your community? I'm not bashing, just trying to understand.

That poster is going away with her frum male boss, they are both married, and people are suggesting all these gedarim, for example:

Quote:

Don't travel together.
Book your own hotel arrangements and get reimbursed rather than book them together.
Don't meet up before the conference and go in together; go by yourself.
Don't go out to eat together. If you are in a place with only one kosher restaurant and you will end up in the same place, order in.
During networking sessions, don't stand together; branch out and talk to people who you don't necessarily know.
During talks, don't arrange ahead of time to sit together.

And it's not just traveling with the boss. People don't use first names at work, people don't chitchat around the water cooler, people don't don't eat out with other couples for shabbos lunch. Etc. Etc.

It would never enter my mind to be inappropriate with my boss or coworkers or shabbos guests. I've gone for trips with my boss and eaten lunch and booked hotel rooms and sat with him at presentations. I've eaten out with couples and I chat all the time with coworkers about their kids, vacations, etc. Crossing boundaries? I don't get it. You're both married and you're both religious. Do you really not trust each other in this most basic aspect of morality? and religion? How can that be?

Do you actually know people who ate lunch together with married co-workers and then had affairs with them? I've heard of people doing that, for sure. And I know of a graduate school classmate with an abusive husband who eventually left him for a professor. Other than that I can't think of anyone. And I certainly can never picture myself doing that.

Maybe I'm not hot enough. Maybe if I was super hot and guys were falling by my feet, it would be more of a concern? Or is it just that this is how it's done in your community? Like not driving or something?

amother

White

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 3:53 am

I do NOT come from that kind of community and I agree 100% with most of these boundaries. I have traveled with men before and I have seen comfortable relationships between married men and married women, not their wives, and these are good boundaries.
Casual contact breeds familiarity and familiarity breeds a higher chance of making poor choices.
I was a young unmarried girl nervous about traveling with a cute unmarried young man. My cubicle was near his and on the morning before our trip I hear him answer the phone. I could only hear 1/2 the conversation but it was clear they were discussing me. From the answers I could tell they were discussing whether he should make a play for me over the course of the trip. It seems though that my co-worker was trying to shut down his buddy's suggestion. He seemed embarrassed.
Anyway, the after-hours travel atmosphere is often very friendly and companionable. While it is awesome that people are so sure of their devotion to their spouses, don't overestimate your strength. This is nothing at all like walking by a church. Nothing at all.
Last minute chickened out of using my username.

heidi

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 3:58 am

I think alot of these gedarim are ridiculous. I call my friend's husbands by their first names and have no problem having conversations in public places with a member of the opposite relations. That said, me and my equally liberal husband find it incredibly odd that one of our male friends goes out with the wife of another friend for fancy business dinners to woo clients for work. They also go on business trips.
Both these people are really attractive and somehow, all these gedarim suddenly seem to make sense from the outside looking in.

Bitachon101

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 4:50 am

While not an actual boss, I've had coworkers that overstepped boundaries and eventually led to them saying inappropriate things trying to spur a relationship. Yes frum married people. Probably would've never happened if careful Abt gedarim.
On the other hand I've worked with many male people and had to have business meetings over food and gone to conferences and all were never an issue though sometimes awkward. In some of my workplaces I had to call ppl by first name. I honestly don't like it though when Frum married men that I work with call me by my first name. It just knocks down too many boundaries though they just end up doing it anyway.

sky

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 9:32 am

I traveled as a single girl with male coworkers (I work in a male dominated field) and I did set up gedarim right away when I first started traveling. I did talk to a rav about it and we found solutions that were definitely doable and didn't ostracize me. No one ever questioned it. The only one that was slightly weird was going out to eat (but they always thought I was strange in regard to food, so this was no different).
It made me much more comfortable.
I was on first name basis with all my coworkers and I knew their entire life storyies and all their soap operas. Many were around my age, under 30.

- branching out at conferences just makes good business sense, although you have to have a certain personality to do that.
- sitting together at events just happens, especially if seated like that.
- many times a travel agent does the booking so it isn't optional where to stay or how to fly.
- sometimes company will insist on sharing a car, but if they allowed I always got my own just for my own freedom and comfort.
- I did not go out to eat together when traveling but would in the office (if it was in area where no Jewish people).
- When traveling I socialized a lot less with my co workers then I would even in the office. Just said I was tired after the traveling and went to my room and showed back up right when we had to leave.
- When flying I also requested to have my seat separate (when talking to travel agent, not coworker). If I had to explain I would just want my space and some quiet.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:00 am

Sky, I think that gedarim with frum coworkers are reasonable too.
I do want to say that no, I don't call men I'm not related to or much older than by their first names and prefer they reciprocate. Saying I have certain sensitivities or practices, though, does not make me holier than people who don't. I know enough about enough people to know that there are many paths to holiness.

I do think that on a site like Imamother though I should be able to talk about such gedarim comfortably, not defensively.

(Edited to correct spelling mistake.)

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

sandwitched

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:12 am

I wouldnt trust myself. I wouldnt trust the thoughts that come to my mind.
Maybe its weird, but yes, I get attracted to men, and I think thats very natural. Sit me down to casual conversation, and yes I will start having thoughts. Doesn't mean I will act on them, doesn't mean I don't love my husband, it just means there are lots of men out there who are just as attractive as my dh and I can't avoid looking at them.
So again, for me personally, casual relationships would be dangerous.

iluvy

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:28 am

So, I posted the list of gedarim that you quoted in the OP.

I don't have a problem with calling men by their first name, socially or at work. We do socialize with other couples, and I have friendly conversations with both my friends' husbands and my male coworkers. At conferences, I have sat, shmoozed, and had group lunches with male colleagues.

The list of gedarim was in response to the tone of the OP: "We are trying to figure out how we can go together while maintaining said boundaries....it would be just the two of us." The idea is to change the tone from "cozy little vacation together" to "professional business trip with my boss." Maybe it wasn't clear from my post (I wrote it in a couple of seconds), but I don't think it would be inappropriate to sit with him, talk to him, etc. -- in fact, it would be strange to entirely avoid him. But meeting up beforehand and sticking to each other during networking creates a kind of intimacy that I would try to avoid with a male boss.

That said, I don't think OP would do anything inappropriate with her boss even if she traveled with him and blatantly lunched with him and networked like they were conjoined twins. Switching to myself -- why do I keep gedarim in my professional life?

1. It's not that calling someone by their first name will lead to an affair, it's that no one has ever had an affair with someone without first calling them by their first name. (Except Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy.) It's like seatbelts -- if you don't wear a seatbelt, 99% of the time you'll be fine, but in a worst case scenario it may save your life. Not a perfect metaphor because seatbelts don't prevent car accidents, while good gedarim stop any kind of intimacy (I mean closeness, this is not a euphemism) from even getting started.

2. I don't want to be close with any man except my husband. Even if it never comes close to being physically or emotionally inappropriate, to me any kind of intimacy (again, not a euphemism) with another man is an infringement on my relationship with my husband. This is a personal thing, and IME that's where the yeshivish attitude diverges the most from the MO attitude on this issue.

3. I may be influenced by office sitcoms like The Office and Parks and Rec, where everyone is sleeping with / longing for each other Smile

.

For reference, I consider myself more yeshivish than not, though there is a pretty big not Smile

amother

Salmon

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:28 am

sandwitched wrote:

Interesting. I too feel safer when setting boundaries but from the other end. Life has taught me that not all men are trustworthy and boundaries are a great way to save yourself from the headache of reading and interpetting and misinterpreting signals.

sky

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 10:49 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Sky, I think that gedarim with frum coworkers are reasonable too.
I do want to say that no, I don't call men I'm not related to or much older than by their first names and prefer they reciprocate. Saying I have certain sensitivities or practices, though, does not make me holier than people who don't. I know enough about enough people to know that their are many paths to holiness.

I do think that on a site like Imamother though I should be able to talk about such gedarim comfortably, not defensively.

(definitely not saying the traveling gedarim shouldn't be used with frum co-workers. I think you need more in a non-jewish environment because there is a culture of hanging out together after events, going out to eat, and hanging out at the bar until late, at least were I have worked. Or maybe I'm just naive that it doesn't exist in a Jewish work environment)

In my personal life I don't call any non-relatives I'm not related to by their first name.

But in a non-Jewish work setting - I can't imagine calling my coworkers by their last name, I just don't see that working at all. As it is there is so much separation, not eating the same food, not shaking hands, not going out together after work. I find all that in itself creates a different relationship because of the differences and strangeness.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 12:43 pm

sky wrote:

Very reasonable.

(And one day I'm going to start calling my doctors by their first names, especially once they get to be a bit younger than I Very Happy

)

gittelchana

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:14 pm

marina wrote:

Maybe I'm not hot enough. Maybe if I was super hot and guys were falling by my feet, it would be more of a concern? Or is it just that this is how it's done in your community? Like not driving or something?

Nice humorous way to end of a great post. Just too good to not quote Wink

I totally agree with you. I think many of these boundaries have little to do with Halacha and much to do with insecurities.

If you have reason to not trust yourself or the other person, if you feel that you're getting too close, by all means, put some more distance. But to make grandiose blanket statements like that? On what basis are we THAT Machmir? Whoever said it's normal to never interact with the other gender?

I remember my husband once showing me a Gemara in Sota. I don't remember everything it said there but I do remember that the Gemara considered it normal to converse with the other gender. Even in Avos (which is all about going BEYOND the letter of the law) it only says not to speak too much. But not to speak at all?.....

naturalmom5

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:25 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

Ah marina marina marina.. I wish I was 5% as naive as you
Wherever you live I must move there.. Are there swimming pools by you where you swim under water and there is a portal to an old lady giving out candy and solving every child's problem ( sorry. reference to an old twilight zone)

When you are raised in a uber gender segregated society with a million chumras and repressive measures , you get aroused when wind blows on you, especially if you are still 20s/30s and the hormones are active.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Jan 29 2016, 1:36 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Right.

Because American Pie is a frum production.