A dissenting view of the Rechnitz speech

LittleDucky

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 4:26 pm

I think the issues with the schools are multifaceted and trying to blame it on one segment of the population is rediculous, let alone false.
You have parents who cannot imagine sending their angels to school with the neighborhood kids.
Those who want to be better than everyone else. Even if your school is top, you want it to be "the top top" because every school now claims to be top.
Every school wants to be top so they have to not accept some students. It's like some colleges faking how many apply (by counting incomplete applications, those that withdraw their applications because they were accepted elsewhere etc) to make it look more competitive to get in.
There are not enough schools. If you don't have enough desks, time to open more schools and classes!
There are not enough different types of schools. Yes Lakewood likes to think that everyone is the same type but that is impossible. No two people can think exactly like everyone else on everything. But then no school wants to be a "reject school". It's not like people purposely move where they disagree fundamentally- they might have one or two more minor areas that differ (because everyone there does agree to some basics, probably 85% or 90% so the leftover stuff is just the sprinkles on the frosting. )

No school is willing to do what R' Shraga Feivel did: sent his top students to another yeshiva to help them grow and to not be seen as "rejectville".

They won't establish a "residency match program" to make sure everyone gets a spot and that the same couple of dozen girls get accepted everywhere, which holds up acceptance letters for everyone. Schools don't want it because they don't have as much control, even though they do keep power because they choose who to accept, but those girls may not get the letter if the school wasn't a "first choice" and they got accepted to a higher personal preference school. "Askanim" (those who aren't doing it out of chessed and goodwill, which is why there are quotes) hate it because they lose power. Parents can't persuade schools to not let XYZ get in.
But overall, it will solve a vast majority of the issues if people are taken out of the equation (and their pride) and just work it out by numbers. And no one gets letters until everyone is placed. All local schools are on the list and everyone ranks their school. (So it's as if you apply to every school).

Simple1

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 4:54 pm

amother wrote:

I'm going to take a REALLY dissenting view and agree with the "elitists"

I live in Lakewood and send my oldest son to one of the less Yeshivesh more accepting schools. And I am having major problems with the influence the rest of his class is having in him in relation to (1)seeing gasmius/having a good time as a major life striving and value (2)exposure to the non Jewish entertainment world (3)the use of all sorts of unacceptable words.(4) etc.

None of my friends whose children are in the more "elitist" schools are having such issues.
I regret terribly not having sent him to one.

Let me add.My younger children all go to "elitist" schools.The middos of their classmates is far better and there is far less bullying then in my oldest sons school.

So I wonder if all the "unwanted" kids get pushed into the "lower tier" schools, and it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it would be better to have things more balanced, and have a healthy mix in all the schools.

Personally, my dds go to a not considered top high school. I've found the girls to have especially good middos, more than others I have met. Maybe they were raised in homes by parents who were not "elitits" and they in turn raised good kids.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 5:32 pm

Point to ponder for all those parents desperate to send their kids to "top" schools:

Remember the recent highly-controversial "Coup of the Masses" story recently published in the Family First, regarding the unfairness in the distribution of high school jobs. (If I recall directly it was discussed on imamother as well).

Parents please realize that inevitably, by pushing your kids into those "top" schools, they will very probably end up as an overlooked, hurt, unacknowleged student. It's just the way things are.

My oldest daughter was actually accepted to the "top" school where I was an (overlooked) student. I thought long and hard - and I chose to put her instead in a new, unestablished, 2nd rate school. A decade later my 8th grader is thriving and shining, she's confident, loves school, enjoying being GO head and is so appreciated and recognized for her talents and qualities.

She's confident and happy, and is also "top" in every way - refined, ehrlich, got into a "top" camp effortlessly, and has a wonderful name on the block and with her neighbor friends. Nothing second rate about my kid, and I have no regrets for my choice.

Just a point to ponder. Don't just go with the flow and do what the 'top' families are doing - think about what type of school experience you want for your child.

Rubber Ducky

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 6:49 pm

amother wrote:

I think it has to be no school considered a 'top' school. All schools should be on the same level. Some more strict, some less, but each school should be looked at same level. Each family sends to whatever school they feel best and no school should be looked down upon. Enough with this levels, no one is better then anyone else. Everyone won't be fighting to get into the top school because there is no top school.

Sounds... utopian.

I'm very happy I live in Baltimore!

debsey

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:33 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

What makes a school "top" in yeshivish circles?

What makes cropped tops be in style now? Mostly, just "fashion trends" with as little behind it. I live in Lakewood, and I chose not to send to a "top" school even though my daughter got in. Anyone who sends to a "top" school simply because it's known as the "top" is not really thinking about the good of their children. Just like fashion trends are mostly about hype and hyperbole, "top" schools are not better than "second-tier" schools. Personally, I'd rather send to the place where my kid fits in best. I think people buy in to a lot of hype and it's really based on nothing.

naturalmom5

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:46 pm

debsey wrote:

Much like the shidduch crisis... 100 girls lining up for a pet rock...
Often a few years after chasana he turns out to be a plain rock

Chayalle

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 7:56 pm

fleetwood wrote:

I have a question. If a school only wants kids whose fathers don't work, how do they pay tuition? I can't believe someone is penalized for working. Please tell me this isn't a real thing.

I have one friend who has B"AH a large family, and her inlaws pay her tuition. But I don't know anyone else like this.

In most families (like my own) where the father learns in Kollel, the mother works, and that's where tuition $$$ come from. Also, there usually is a Kollel check, which helps a bit.

Honestly, I really don't think girls are not accepted to schools just because their father works....my DD says by the time you get to high school, MOST fathers are working - she's in the minority in her school.

amother

Blue

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 8:14 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

I don't get this. I don't understand why a person would willingly live in a community where they feel forced to be fake and deceitful in order to fit in. Why not live in a community that happily accepts you and even respects you the way that you are? Why not live in a community where people are on the same page as you instead of a community that fundamentally disagrees with you.

You totally missed the point of my post. I fit in my neighbors fit in but what I am saying is that even yeshivish people wth no internet fake that they are learning just to get into schools.

Why are you saying I don't fit in? Do you know me?

Heyaaa

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 1:51 am

amother wrote:

I don't know the first thing about you. I wasn't saying anything about you. By 'you' I was referring to the people you mentioned in your post. You are right, I should have said 'they'.
If they have to lie about anything to be accepted in the community, then they are not on the same page as the community. And in such a case, I don't get why they choose to live there.

Although someone on page five did address why someone would still live there. Someone explained that they can agree with 90% of what the community and the rest can be superfluous so they live there because they feel it's the closest they will get to a community that actually does agree with them.

Simple1

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 7:43 am

I just want to clarify my previous posts, that while I feel elitism exists, it's not the majority of lakewood. It's a portion of people who ruin it for others. And some of the most yeshivish/frummest schools in lakewood are not really elitist, nor considered "top" schools- they're simply hard to get into because they're huge enough as it is.

Actually that was my point - that the elitism is not always necessarily about frumkeit.

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 8:23 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Lakewood is not like Kiryas Yoel or New Square where there is only one derech and if you don't fit in then you really don't belong there. There are not many Chasidim (although that's changing) or Modern Orthodox. But there are all different types of Litvish people living here, and there always have been.

Some people would like the Lakewood community to be made up of only very yeshivish people. They think it should reflect BMG. They forget that BMG isn't only very yeshivish. BMG has all types of men learning there.

Unfortunately a lot of the schools seem to think that it's better to be very yeshivish. Even if the heads of the school are not necessarily so yeshivish, and even if their parent body isn't very yeshivish, they try to impose the very yeshivish restrictions on every body. I cannot understand why.

That's why when you say people shouldn't live here who don't belong here, if that was true, at least 50% of the community would have to leave. Instead we need schools that reflect the true makeup of the community, not just someone's wish list of what they think a "true Torah community" should look like.

amother

Sienna

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 8:34 am

Does it matter why these kids haven't gotton into a school? The parents should all get together and you will see that there are many. This is not a over blown story of one or two exceptions. Why doesnt the "va'ad" deal with the situations now do people have to be twice humiliated. Beg the schools to accept them get as many people involved. And in May when they still are turned down without pity,go to the vaa'd only to be told either what they are doing wrong or that they will take care of it but the child only gets into a school on the second day of the the new school year with conditions. What's the answer to that problem

Chayalle

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 8:42 am

glutenless wrote:

In the past couple of years I've seen this alot....new rules in the school that never existed before about dress, activities, etc...I think the reason is really that the school wants the mix to be maintained - that is they WANT there to be a mix of the very yeshivish, the middle, etc...but they were losing some of the very right wing population to some new very-right-wing schools that opened up, and this segment of the school is pushing these stricter rules. Also, some of these are the teachers in the school, and the school does not want to lose them.

Agree with your post, well said.

leah233

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 8:50 am

Chayalle wrote:

If a school is really so concerned about keeping a mix they wouldn't make rules that will alienate those to the left.Particularly when the heads of the schools never felt those rules should exist to begin with.Apparently there is a reason why schools want the more yeshivishe parents. I don't believe it is all for their reputations.

Chayalle

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 8:51 am

leah233 wrote:

They aren't afraid of alienating those on the left - those are the people begging to get in. Yes, there are reasons why they want the more yeshivish parents.

Just saying it like it is.

Fox

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 12:40 pm

Lakewood and the Yeshivish world in general has backed itself into a bit of a corner in recent years.

One of the primary tenets of Yeshivish life is emunas hachamim -- relying on the advice and wisdom of our generation's Torah leaders. This principle, more than any specific attitude or practice, is what differentiates Yeshivish life from MO life.

So it makes perfect sense to address the leadership about problems, regardless of individual culpability in causing or perpetuating a problem.

In theory, that should solve the problem. The major leaders in Lakewood would say, "Here are rules for handling admissions" and "Build more schools." So why don't they?

Because they know that only a small minority is listening.

The dirty secret is that a large majority of people who identify as Yeshivish -- in Lakewood and elsewhere -- aren't really very Yeshivish. We might learn in kollel; we certainly dress the part; we live in Yeshivish neighborhoods; we daven in Yeshivish shuls. But when push comes to shove, we are not very Yeshivish. That includes people who run schools, too.

Why? Because we only have emunas chachamim when it suits us.

And thus Lakewood -- and the larger Yeshivish veldt -- finds itself between the proverbial rock and hard place. Our leaders have already told us how to scale down weddings and have forbidden the custom of the vort -- and you see how well that has worked.

Telling the Lakewood populace how to improve the school admission problem and being roundly ignored would reveal precisely how un-Yeshivish most people in Lakewood really are, thus undermining the original concept of the Lakewood community as a retreat from the influences of the Brooklyn "street."

Decades ago, Samuel Heilman's Synagogue Life captured the reality of many MO adherents. It wasn't that they were particularly committed to the tenet of Torah U'Madda; rather, they just "didn't want to be that frum."

The Yeshivish world is no different. There are a lot of us who are comfortable with the cultural practices and basic observances in the Yeshivish world, but we aren't committed to the tenet of Emunas Chachamim when we don't like what the Chachamim have to say. After all, we don't want to be that frum.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

Last year a really wealthy person the husband was caught doing immoral things so immoral that he was in the ny post that the non jews even viewed this as immoral and this guys neighbors called a certain school not to let the daughter in to the top high school in Lakewood that everyone would agree is the top and what do you know this immoral guy will got his daughter in even with phone calls because he donated over one million dollars.

I'm saying this story because no one knows who I am talking about.

My point is that the schools only listen to parents when they weren't going to take the child in anyways. If there was a chick they were going to take in they will not listen to parents.

Blaming parents is avoiding the real issue.

I'm glad the school to hear the school is taking the girl. If she is good why should she be punished on account of her parents.

My son has a classmate who is also living in a household where there are 'immoral living conditions'. I know for a fact people have asked for the child to be kicked out. The school has no intention of doing so, and the rabbanim in town said they cannot.
I'm glad to hear the right thing is being done with that highschool girl as well.