Favors: "I'm allowed to ask, she can say no"

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Feb 07 2016, 8:53 pm

I was having this argument with a friend and would appreciate all your input.

Is it ever ok to request favors from people - meaning directly from a specific person vs posting a general request to a larger group - when you know, or have strong reason to suspect, that their agreeing to do the favor would cause them a lot of harship, with the excuse of "she can always say no?"

My neighbor was defending herself for having requested an enormously difficult favor from another neighbor of ours who is known to do a lot of chessed, after many other neighbors refused her request, who sure enough had an extremely difficult time with it and ended up turning to me for take over.

I argued that its never ok to request inappropriate favors because although we all should be able to say no, many people do struggle with saying no and we shouldn't be taking advantage of that difficulty.

I'm just checking if I have a valid point here, or am I being blinded because I'm highly annoyed since I was asked to clean up this mess and therefore am not capable of being objective.

What do you all think?

Ema of 5

Sun, Feb 07 2016, 8:57 pm

amother wrote:

I'm with you. If you KNOW of have a strong feeling that the person being asked is going to have a hard time but will also have a hard doing the favor, then I think it's really not nice.

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 1:24 am

Maybe I'm a bad person but I get really annoyed when people ask for really big favors. Maybe it's because they feel stupid asking something so big so they act like they think it's small. It makes them feel better but I end up feeling like a bad person for saying no but I can't actually do the favor. So instead I get mad at them for putting me in that position.

If they would come out saying "I know this is a huge favor and I feel really bad that I can't do it myself but I know how big it is so I will more than understand if you don't want to or can't do it", I would feel totally different both about doing it and about them as a person.

ora_43

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 2:32 am

I agree.

I don't think it's just an issue of people having trouble saying "no." If someone asks for a favor, people will assume they really need help, so it's not fair to ask unless it's really needed.

Like, if a friend asked "ora, could you cook dinner for me tonight" I'd assume something must be really wrong (she's sick, there's a family crisis, etc) and that's why she's asking. So it wouldn't be nice to ask unless something's really wrong, otherwise it's like taking help under false pretenses.

(All this assuming that people aren't openly saying "could you do this for me, I can't be bothered to do it myself." If they are, well... at least they're honest)

chani8

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 2:59 am

"I'm allowed to ask, she can say no" is true.

Not being able to say no is your problem. The one who asks for big favors has other problems.

Sometimes the people who ask us for really big favors surely know how big those favors are, but they may be desperate for help.

Looking back to the time I said no to a friend who asked for a really big favor, I see now that instead of saying no, I could've suggested splitting the chessed up into manageable pieces, for several friends to do the chessed together. Then it wouldn't have been all on me and not so big.

amother

Blue

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 12:06 pm

I think there are people who are just so accustomed to being helped that they've lost their compass in that regard. I'm not sure it's even a matter of how big or small the issue is.

There's definitely a level of entitlement to it in most circumstances. I don't think I'm a martyr, but I was brought up by a mother and grandmother who took care of their own problems and never looked to others to do anything for them.

Recently a not so close friend was moving. She is recently divorced with 2 older kids. She has a car. She has money for a moving company. She simply felt that moving was a big job and someone ought to help her out.

So she asked me. Another mother, with 5 kids, and no help to speak of. Now what on earth was she expecting to happen? That me and my 5 kids were going to help her move 40 miles away? That someone else was going to offer to spend their Sunday watching MY 5 kids while I moved boxes with her??

I'm sorry. So I had to feel like a jerk, "refusing" to help. It's just wrong to ask in many cases that I have experienced.

PinkFridge

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 12:34 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Didn't someone post recently that there is a halacha not to ask of a person who can't say no?

And emotional blackmail is never okay.

It sounds like ona'as devarim. Probably some other mitzvos involved too.
I would tell your friend that if she does continue to ask, to practice sincerely saying, "I appreciate feeling comfortable enough with you to ask you and hope I didn't make you uncomfortable." Or something like that.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 12:45 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Didn't someone post recently that there is a halacha not to ask of a person who can't say no?

And emotional blackmail is never okay.

The nature of asking favors often entails emotional blackmail. Saying that you NEED something or YOU'RE DESPERATE are all cases where you play on the person's emotions. Reminding a person that you did XYZ and therefore they owe you ABC is also emotional blackmail.

zaq

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 4:52 pm

Are you asking from an ethical standpoint or one of etiquette? Asking for a favor like this is called "putting a person on the spot" and is a major no-no, etiquette-wise.

Asking someone who you know can't bring herself to refuse is not menschlich. When saying yes involves some sort of hardship for that person, asking is just plain evil.

youngishbear

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 5:05 pm

amother wrote:

"Hi neighbor. I have an appointment tomorrow at 2 pm. Would you be able to take my daughter off the bus for an hour or so until I get back? It would be a huge help for me. I hope it's not too difficult..."

How is that emotional blackmail?

Blackmail is when you use manipulative tactics to get the other person feeling obligated or guilty, either by applying pressure, or bullying them, or other nefarious tactics.

Emotional

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 6:41 pm

chani8 wrote:

It's not so much being unable to say no in and of itself. It's that there are people who don't accept a no, they have to approve of your reason why you can't, and they have a counter-argument for every reason you give.
Also, "I'm not in the mood right now" is also a reason. It could be a person's way of saying "I'm not physically or emotionally up to doing what you just asked me" but sometimes a person can't verbalize it so well. But saying "I'm not in the mood" or saying "no" without a reason, comes across as callous and uncaring. So when a person is put on the spot with a request and caught off guard, they may feel pressured to say yes because they can't think so quickly.
A neighbor of mine called me this evening to ask if I can put up her brother, his wife, and their five children for Shabbos. But she asked me in such a nice way, with no pressure, that I was able to tell her that it just won't work for me (it would involve a lot of housework prep that I know I won't get to this week).
But imagine had she whined and begged and given me "eitzas" for every reason. I would have felt backed into a corner, reluctantly said yes, and found myself overwhelmed this week with a lot of anxiety. Not to mention resentment.

youngishbear

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 7:11 pm

Emotional wrote:

Practice saying "I'm so sorry I can't right now." You can say it softly and regretfully, so you don't sound callous.

I think if someone whines and begs she is unlikely to read such threads or recognize herself in it. So there will always be such people around. Those of us on the receiving end need to learn to handle such beggars without falling for their tactics.

smss

Mon, Feb 08 2016, 7:13 pm

youngishbear wrote:

You're right about that, IMO.