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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim
Halloween & Purim = I Want Candy !!!
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 10:02 am
In this date & era all I could see as reason to celebrate Purim isn't any different from wanting to celebrate halloween = I want candy, a party, a good time ...

Celebrating the oppression of women within the scopes of a male based religion doesn't seem celebratory at all ... Esther went under the bus - got raped by king achashveirosh because her uncle mordy told her it's a good idea ...

while we're at it - why don't we start celebrating all the molestation/abuse victims hidden amongst the jewish closets ?!
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Ihatepotatoes




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 10:13 am
greenfire wrote:
In this date & era all I could see as reason to celebrate Purim isn't any different from wanting to celebrate halloween = I want candy, a party, a good time ...

Celebrating the oppression of women within the scopes of a male based religion doesn't seem celebratory at all ... Esther went under the bus - got raped by king achashveirosh because her uncle mordy told her it's a good idea ...

while we're at it - why don't we start celebrating all the molestation/abuse victims hidden amongst the jewish closets ?!

cousin mordechai, a tzadik by the way . and the gemara says that it she subsituted a demon instead of her
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 10:25 am
greenfire wrote:
In this date & era all I could see as reason to celebrate Purim isn't any different from wanting to celebrate halloween = I want candy, a party, a good time ...

Celebrating the oppression of women within the scopes of a male based religion doesn't seem celebratory at all ... Esther went under the bus - got raped by king achashveirosh because her uncle mordy told her it's a good idea ...

while we're at it - why don't we start celebrating all the molestation/abuse victims hidden amongst the jewish closets ?!


It was the Persian culture of the time that was oppressive of women and treated them as objects as the megilla abundantly illustrates.
Yes, Esther sacrificed her personal life and happiness for the good of her people but it was her choice, for which she was accorded our people's eternal gratitude.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 10:36 am
etky wrote:
It was the Persian culture of the time that was oppressive of women and treated them as objects as the megilla abundantly illustrates.
Yes, Esther sacrificed her personal life and happiness for the good of her people but it was her choice, for which she was accorded our people's eternal gratitude.


What I meant was that it was her free choice to go to the king and thus risk her own life.
It was not her free choice to be taken to the king's palace and to become his queen in the first place.
But neither was it Morderchai's doing despite the fact that he did read Divine purpose into the turn of events.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 1:38 pm
You're right: Esther's story is profoundly sad.
And yet, it's a day when we are to be b'simcha.
Last week, Rabbi Reisman spoke about our capacity to hold opposing thoughts, using Pinchas as a springboard. He was the man for a certain job in Yehoshua because according to some, he was an ish shalom, according to others, an ish milchama.
Like Holocaust survivors (the last 2 members of 2 older branches of his family passed away recently, zichronam l'vracha), we don't get let ourselves get paralyzed but rebuild.

So don't feel conflicted, or maybe I should say, guilty, if you feel the energy of simcha, or the potential, and you want to actualize it in a healthy, uplifting way!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 1:53 pm
greenfire wrote:
In this date & era all I could see as reason to celebrate Purim isn't any different from wanting to celebrate halloween = I want candy, a party, a good time ...

Celebrating the oppression of women within the scopes of a male based religion doesn't seem celebratory at all ... Esther went under the bus - got raped by king achashveirosh because her uncle mordy told her it's a good idea ...

while we're at it - why don't we start celebrating all the molestation/abuse victims hidden amongst the jewish closets ?!

I stank to be female in ancient Persia, but that doesn't mean the only positive aspect of Purim is candy.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 2:16 pm
In any case, this wasn't entirely a male-instituted holiday. Both Mordechai and Esther sent out missives instructing the Jews to keep the holiday as a permanent one- see Perek tet.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 3:33 pm
water_bear88 wrote:
In any case, this wasn't entirely a male-instituted holiday. Both Mordechai and Esther sent out missives instructing the Jews to keep the holiday as a permanent one- see Perek tet.


In fact the gemara has Esther -not Mordechai, appearing before chazal, enjoining them to institute Purim as a holiday for generations and to include the megilla in the biblical canon - קבעוני וכתבוני לדורות. It is she who is emblematic of the holiday, not Mordechai, and rightly so.
She was the one who shouldered the risk and it was her actions that effected the Jewish people's salvation. Mordechai encouraged and motivated her but she was the pivotal player in this drama.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 7:55 pm
what a comparison!!!! lahvidil!!!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 8:53 pm
amother wrote:
what a comparison!!!! lahvidil!!!


True.
But you walk into a drugstore this week and you see all that marked down candy Wink
And it's been a long, even if milder winter. Some of us are just starting to see the sun again.
But yes, if I were writing the thread title I would have written it differently. I would have written:
Halloween & Purim = I Want Chocolate!!!

Cheers
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 8:55 pm
Um, 'uncle mordy' didn't tell his WIFE it was a 'good idea' to get raped by the king. What was he supposed to do? Take her place? It wasn't like a playgroup where you could get your deposit back if you got someone to fill your slot. It wasn't even a life or death matter- achashveirosh wasn't offering death as an option. There was just one- and it was going to happen whether she liked it or not.

She was taken. She had no choice in that; he had no choice in that. Hundreds of girls and women actually befell that same fate, and they were all ruined afterwards because it was forbidden to marry after having been with the king. Many many lives were ruined during this time. So as soon as she was brought to the prep house, their life together was over. He knew it, she knew it. But he was able to see the salvation in the tragedy, when no one what could. And she believed in him so much and was brave enough to see his plan through to completion that ultimately hundreds of thousands (millions? Don't know how many Jews there were at the time) were saved.

Yes, like most Jewish holidays,a lot has gotten lost in translation over the years. I don't think mordechai was envisioning spongebob themes, drunk teenagers, furious (sober) wives, or artfully stacked Lucite boxes filled with Belgian chocolates when he wrote the megillah. But that's on us, not them.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 22 2016, 9:25 pm
greenfire wrote:
In this date & era all I could see as reason to celebrate Purim isn't any different from wanting to celebrate halloween = I want candy, a party, a good time ...

Celebrating the oppression of women within the scopes of a male based religion doesn't seem celebratory at all ... Esther went under the bus - got raped by king achashveirosh because her uncle mordy told her it's a good idea ...

while we're at it - why don't we start celebrating all the molestation/abuse victims hidden amongst the jewish closets ?!


Esther HaMalka doesn't symbolize victimhood to me. She symbolizes a woman using her courage to save her people. What could be more agentic and powerful than that? In the alien environment of Achashverosh's palace, she managed to keep her religion, her values, and her head (pun intended - it's Purim, after all!) How is she different than a (male) soldier who chooses to risk his body and life in battle? Yes, Esther made an ultimate sacrifice (that of her marriage to Mordechai) for the sake of her people, but that makes her a heroine. Do you think only men can be heroic?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 3:02 am
We don't do candy on Purim- just saying.
meshulach Manos should be something meant to be eaten that day. Candy is easy and cute, but not ideal.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 5:18 am
Exactly. Its the candy that got out of control. The YT is yom misha vesimcha. Mishloach Manos is supposed to be a gift of two foods to one (or two - depending) people and THATS IT!! You are supposed to spend MORE money on Matanos Le-evyonim then on Mishloach Manos. We should really start a thread about this. It's my DH's pet Peeve.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 5:39 am
I think the candy is related to the crazy number of Mishloach Manot that people feel obligated to give. If you're only getting 2 or 3 Mishlochei Manot, you're happy to get salads, challah and dips, or other real food. I've known at least one small community where anyone who wishes is free to sign up ahead of time- each household is assigned 2 others to give to, and each gets from two. People there give real food since they know it will be eaten. I know if I got 50 real MM, most of them would end up in the garbage, either because they're foods that don't freeze well or because they're chametz and I'm not restocking my freezer with chametz 4 weeks before Pesach.

And that's without the additional factors of allergies and different hechshers.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:18 pm
you're all missing the point. this is NOT about candy vs food or how much & how pretty your mishloach manos are ... it's that purim is futile inasmuch as halloween is [whether or not you say l'havdil] ... to women all over the world purim is in fact celebrating esther having to give up her life and her values her virginity to save the nation ... why oh why couldn't they be saved without that and why are we celebrating the oppression - mordechai [cousin or uncle same difference] got tutelage at the king's gate and caused more hatred - he had what to gain in sending esther to the harem [which I imagine to be no different than a xxx strip club]

what is it that hashem is asking/demanding of us - all of these atrocities came about by drinking to the point of being so drunk the king killed his queen - so now we should celebrate by being drunk - עד דלא ידע - till we don't know anymore ...

you know how many men & bochurim get drunk till they have no respect left for their wives their children their family ... how ironic

all this & we should be happy ?!?!?!
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:28 pm
greenfire wrote:
you're all missing the point. this is NOT about candy vs food or how much & how pretty your mishloach manos are ... it's that purim is futile inasmuch as halloween is [whether or not you say l'havdil] ... to women all over the world purim is in fact celebrating esther having to give up her life and her values her virginity to save the nation ... why oh why couldn't they be saved without that and why are we celebrating the oppression - mordechai [cousin or uncle same difference] got tutelage at the king's gate and caused more hatred - he had what to gain in sending esther to the harem [which I imagine to be no different than a xxx strip club]

what is it that hashem is asking/demanding of us - all of these atrocities came about by drinking to the point of being so drunk the king killed his queen - so now we should celebrate by being drunk - עד דלא ידע - till we don't know anymore ...

you know how many men & bochurim get drunk till they have no respect left for their wives their children their family ... how ironic

all this & we should be happy ?!?!?!


And how about all the men who leave their wives home with a houseful of kids to go to Uman or their Rebbe for the Yamim Noraim, and the ones who get drunk on Pesach, and the ones who get drunk on Simchat Torah, etc etc? We can't cancel all the holidays just because a lot of men are jerks. We need to learn how to have our own celebration. Go to a women-reading-for-women megilla reading if it's meaningful for you- I love them. Nobody's drunk, nobody's screaming; you can get a seat near the baalat kriah with no mechitza in the way. Oh, and usually there are several women who split up the prakim so no one loses their voice. (Can you tell I've been to a lot of awful men's readings over the years?)

Don't go crazy with the MM if you don't want to! If you love the chance to get creative, great! If you don't, also great! If you think they're generally excessive in your community, or if you'd like to get creative but don't have the energy to do 100 nice ones, try to set up a system in your community like the one I described earlier. Or set up a shul mishloach manot, part of the funds from which can go to community matanot la'evyonim.

We can make Purim fun and meaningful again!
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:43 pm
I don't know - to me Purim is a feminist holiday with an empowering message.
A woman manages to upend the conventional male-female power equation and to work the exploitative, objectifying, patriarchal system to her advantage and more significantly towards the salvation of her entire people.
A book that starts out with the promulgation of the (pathetic) royal command that all women obey their husands ends with a woman seizing control of her situation and manipulating her royal and mighty husband into doing her bidding. Talk about ironic...
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:45 pm
etky wrote:
I don't know - to me Purim is a feminist holiday with an empowering message.
A woman manages to upend the conventional male-female power equation and to work the exploitative, objectifying, patriarchal system to her advantage and more significantly towards the salvation of her entire people.
A book that starts out with the promulgation of the (pathetic) royal command that all women obey their husands ends with a woman seizing control of her situation and manipulating her royal and mighty husband into doing her bidding. Talk about ironic...
100% agree. Couldn't suffice with a Like. You need a Thumbs Up
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:47 pm
greenfire wrote:
you're all missing the point. this is NOT about candy vs food or how much & how pretty your mishloach manos are ... it's that purim is futile inasmuch as halloween is [whether or not you say l'havdil] ... to women all over the world purim is in fact celebrating esther having to give up her life and her values her virginity to save the nation ... why oh why couldn't they be saved without that and why are we celebrating the oppression - mordechai [cousin or uncle same difference] got tutelage at the king's gate and caused more hatred - he had what to gain in sending esther to the harem [which I imagine to be no different than a xxx strip club]

what is it that hashem is asking/demanding of us - all of these atrocities came about by drinking to the point of being so drunk the king killed his queen - so now we should celebrate by being drunk - עד דלא ידע - till we don't know anymore ...

you know how many men & bochurim get drunk till they have no respect left for their wives their children their family ... how ironic

all this & we should be happy ?!?!?!


Are you questioning the origin of the holiday (the megillah story and all its connotations) or the practice, today, of men getting drunk on Purim?
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