Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim
Halloween & Purim = I Want Candy !!!
Previous  1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 11:48 am
I am questioning why it's even a holiday when esther was taken & raped ... not a good thing
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 11:54 am
greenfire wrote:
I am questioning why it's even a holiday when esther was taken & raped ... not a good thing


Why is Pesach a holiday? The Jews were enslaved, newborn babies were turned into bricks, etc. Why is Succos a holiday? The Egyptians drowned in the Yam Suf. Why is Rosh Hashana a holiday? Hashem is judging us, and some people will be judged that they will die.
I really don't understand the question.
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 11:57 am
in those instances the jews were enslaved as a whole ... in the megillah it was esther alone
Back to top

mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:04 pm
greenfire wrote:
in those instances the jews were enslaved as a whole ... in the megillah it was esther alone


We are actually celebrating the saving of the Jews as a whole. Don't you remember the part that Haman drew lots and the whole Jewish nation was going to be killed? And then through a miraculous turn of events the Jews were all saved? We are not celebrating Esther's rape. That was a very unfortunate occurrence, which was later revealed to be the catalyst for the whole entire nation being saved. The holiday is named PURIM after the lots that Haman drew, NOT after her rape.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:05 pm
greenfire wrote:
in those instances the jews were enslaved as a whole ... in the megillah it was esther alone


The Jews were all under threat of annihilation! Only Esther was given the chance to act and save her people. Yes, it was at a very high price, but it's a choice she made.

I'm also confused about what you said - Mordechai incited hatred? Mordechai didn't need to incite hatred, Haman would have hated him no matter what he did. On the contrary, Mordechai was well-respected in Persia. Haman had to act out the Amelak imperative of "kill the Jews." Had the Jews handled the test of Achasheverosh's party properly, there would have been no need for any of it - because the "gezeirah" never would have been enacted.
Back to top

mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:09 pm
debsey wrote:
The Jews were all under threat of annihilation! Only Esther was given the chance to act and save her people. Yes, it was at a very high price, but it's a choice she made.

I'm also confused about what you said - Mordechai incited hatred? Mordechai didn't need to incite hatred, Haman would have hated him no matter what he did. On the contrary, Mordechai was well-respected in Persia. Haman had to act out the Amelak imperative of "kill the Jews." Had the Jews handled the test of Achasheverosh's party properly, there would have been no need for any of it - because the "gezeirah" never would have been enacted.


Great minds.
Back to top

DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:16 pm
debsey wrote:
Why is Pesach a holiday? The Jews were enslaved, newborn babies were turned into bricks, etc. Why is Succos a holiday? The Egyptians drowned in the Yam Suf. Why is Rosh Hashana a holiday? Hashem is judging us, and some people will be judged that they will die.
I really don't understand the question.

What?
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:30 pm
haman was jealous of mordechai which in turn incited hatred to the jews
Back to top

bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:37 pm
debsey wrote:

Why is Pesach a holiday? The Jews were enslaved, newborn babies were turned into bricks, etc. Why is Succos a holiday? The Egyptians drowned in the Yam Suf. Why is Rosh Hashana a holiday? Hashem is judging us, and some people will be judged that they will die.
really don't understand the question.


DrMom wrote:
What?


You never heard that? It's straight out in Rashi (Shemos 32:4). I must have learned this when I was 6-7 years old, if not younger...

The midrash relates a story that while the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, Pharaoh decreed that the Jews cement their children into the walls of buildings if they could not meet making their quota of bricks. There was a great outcry, and Moshe Rabbeinu brought the complaint of Jewish people to Hashem. Hashem responded to Moshe that if He will allow these children to live they will eventually turn out to be wicked in the future, and further instructed Moshe to save one of these children to later validate His claim. Moshe saved a child named Micah, and indeed this child later went on to make and worship an idol (the Micah from Sefer Shoftim, who also was the one who threw a piece of gold with Hashem's name on it into the gold that became the Egel HaZahav).
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 12:47 pm
greenfire wrote:
haman was jealous of mordechai which in turn incited hatred to the jews


Actually, though for the most part chazal approved of Mordechai's refusal to bow before Haman, there are some opinions that are critical of him for not bowing down to Haman and thus inciting his anger against the Jewish people.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 1:08 pm
etky wrote:
Actually, though for the most part chazal approved of Mordechai's refusal to bow before Haman, there are some opinions that are critical of him for not bowing down to Haman and thus inciting his anger against the Jewish people.


"V'ratzoy l'rov amo" - you can't please everyone - Mordechai was the embodiment of the Jewish people, who do not bow to idols. Remember the language of the Megillah - "Mordechai Lo Yichra V'Lo Yishtachaveh" - it's written in the future tense. Mordechai was portraying the archetype of the Jewish people who will never bow to idols.

This is the thinking of the Reform Jews - "nihiyeh ki chol hagoyim" - if we are more like the nations around us, they will not hate us. In fact, the whole reason for the gezeirah was that the Jews failed that test and attended the party. Bowing down before Haman could not possibly have made him decide not to persecute the Jews, because he was from Amalek, and he was acting out a genetic imperative.
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 1:12 pm
debsey wrote:
"V'ratzoy l'rov amo" - you can't please everyone - Mordechai was the embodiment of the Jewish people, who do not bow to idols. Remember the language of the Megillah - "Mordechai Lo Yichra V'Lo Yishtachaveh" - it's written in the future tense. Mordechai was portraying the archetype of the Jewish people who will never bow to idols.

This is the thinking of the Reform Jews - "nihiyeh ki chol hagoyim" - if we are more like the nations around us, they will not hate us. In fact, the whole reason for the gezeirah was that the Jews failed that test and attended the party. Bowing down before Haman could not possibly have made him decide not to persecute the Jews, because he was from Amalek, and he was acting out a genetic imperative.


It's also Rabah's opinon in Masechet Megilla.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 1:28 pm
etky wrote:
It's also Rabah's opinon in Masechet Megilla.
I know - and I believe that's one of the things Moses Mendlesohn based his philosophies on. But it's not the majority opinion.
Back to top

etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 1:44 pm
debsey wrote:
I know - and I believe that's one of the things Moses Mendlesohn based his philosophies on. But it's not the majority opinion.


I was pointing out that Greenfire's argument, though not the majority opinon, has some support amongst chazal too. This position is based on supplementary material to the megilla that contains information of a prior relationship and personal rivalry between Mordechai and Haman.
I do think though that the actual text lends itself more to the favorable view of Mordechai and even subtly suggests that his reasoning derived from religious and national - not personal considerations.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 1:46 pm
etky wrote:
I was pointing out that Greenfire's argument, though not the majority opinon, has some support amongst chazal too. This position is based on supplementary material to the megilla that contains information of a prior relationship and personal rivalry between Mordechai and Haman.
I do think though that the actual text lends itself more to the favorable view of Mordechai and even subtly suggests that his reasoning derived from religious and national - not personal considerations.

Right - I think I was agreeing with you on that, but also pointing out that there is a lot of supplemental material about Haman being a descendant of Amalek and having an overwhelming desire to kill Jews, even after that became personally unprofitable for him.
Back to top

faigie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:25 pm
I see your point. Though IMHO he didnt "have" her, rather SHE took control of HIM. If youve ever seen the movie 300, youve sen the depiction of what Achashverosh was supposed to be like. That representation of him in the movie is supposed to be accurate, and the man was a beast. Here Ester used what she had to take control of that lunatic, and saved her people. To me, she kinda raped him. She was no ones victim.
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 2:55 pm
faigie wrote:
I see your point. Though IMHO he didnt "have" her, rather SHE took control of HIM. If youve ever seen the movie 300, youve sen the depiction of what Achashverosh was supposed to be like. That representation of him in the movie is supposed to be accurate, and the man was a beast. Here Ester used what she had to take control of that lunatic, and saved her people. To me, she kinda raped him. She was no ones victim.

She didn't rape him, but she did dominate the encounter, ultimately causing her will to prevail.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 3:13 pm
There is a difference. On Halloween people go to get candy. On Purim we give candy. Sure there's back and forth but it's the ish lerei'eihu that we have to build up.

And I do get the sadness of Esther, and the frustration with how some people spend their day, etc. But there are so many positive sparks, and more. As Debsey said, think of yetzias Mitzrayim, even if Purim is on the micro, one person level.

There was an elderly couple I used to visit on Purim with my kids. It really added so much to our day...
Back to top

debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 3:53 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
There is a difference. On Halloween people go to get candy. On Purim we give candy. Sure there's back and forth but it's the ish lerei'eihu that we have to build up.

And I do get the sadness of Esther, and the frustration with how some people spend their day, etc. But there are so many positive sparks, and more. As Debsey said, think of yetzias Mitzrayim, even if Purim is on the micro, one person level.

There was an elderly couple I used to visit on Purim with my kids. It really added so much to our day...


I instituted a similar thing. We go visit some people who are unlikely to have a Purim (not being more specific because I talk about this IRL). We bring them M"M first, before we can go to our friends/teachers etc.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 23 2016, 5:30 pm
And back to the regularly scheduled depressive stuff, no one's mentioned that Esther had no nachas. Her son was Daryavesh, raised with no vestige of Judaism.
And yet, we celebrate.
Back to top
Page 2 of 3 Previous  1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Purim and babysitters
by amother
6 Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:32 am View last post
Purim pkg from comfort health
by amother
2 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:47 pm View last post
Waterdale collection or A&M judaica
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:15 pm View last post
Spray candy
by amother
8 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 7:02 pm View last post
How do you Purim? And do you like it?
by amother
6 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 1:46 pm View last post