3.5 year old puposefully doens't listen

miami85

Sun, Feb 28 2016, 11:44 am

What is an appropriate consequence for a 3.5 year old who will do his own thing despite being told the correct thing to do? I know that this is not a matter of him not understanding. He's very stubborn. I am having a hard time thinking of consequences. So far the only thing that will make him stop is the threat of a patch--which I REALLY don't want to do, and rarely have to carry out but he is becoming difficult to manage. He does things because it makes sense in his own mind, but then I have to deal with the consequences:
I.e.
I say "don't get the milk and don't open it"--he goes gets the milk, opens the cover and it spills on the floor--and he doesn't want to clean it.

I tell him "don't take out all of the toys, don't pour them all into the pack n' play" he does it and tells me he'll clean up, but then he doesn't and throws a tantrum.

He asks for a lollipop, I tell him he needs to eat food first, he barely eats, I say no lollipop. He goes to the cabinet and climbs up to get one. I tell him food first, he'll say " it's yucky" and throw it on the floor. I tell him "no lollipop" and a 20 minute kicking shrieking tantrum ensues and he tries to hurt me--he starts ramming into me and it can hurt.

He wants everything done NOW and on his terms.

nyer1

Sun, Feb 28 2016, 11:55 am

I also have a 3.5 year old who can be difficult.
I try really hard to remind myself it's all NORMAL. it's nothing personal, and there's nothing WRONG with the child. this is a necessary part of development. I think REALLY KNOWING that will help you to cope when things don't go the way you'd like them too.

first, I find making expectations and directions very very clear will help. also having a very strict and consistent structure. for example, for us? lollipops are never in the house. ever. MAYBE on shabbos, and even then, it's tucked away in a secret cabinet that even if my son knew where they were, would never get to it. during the week, he can have one treat a day, and he has to EARN it by good behavior. otherwise, fruit and even raisins are considered a very special healthy treat.(I didn't grow up with such great healthy eating so I'm trying to instill this in my children... he LOVES fruit!)

when giving directions, try to give as few steps as possible. when he needs to do something, don't expect him to follow multiple steps at a time. for example, if I want my son to get ready for a bath, I tell him the steps one at a time.
"it's time for a bath. please go to your room to get undressed."
"great job... now, can you please put your clothes in the laundry basket?
"great listening! next, please put your tzitzis and yarmalke in the box"
"wonderful job... now, let's get into the bath."

I could never say all of those things to him at once. this is also ALL ROUTINE. we do the same thing, in the same order, at the same time, every single day, barring unusual circumstances. is your home like this? if not, this is a great way to start.

I'm also very firm on "1,2,3". I used it this shabbos and when my son was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, I used it at the shabbos meal, and, when my son perked up and realized he hadn't been listening to me, my guests were VERY impressed with how I was able to keep my cool, but also get my son to listen.
--he was behind a specific chair where I really don't want him playing because it was behind a recliner that he was playing with, and my baby follows him there and it's just asking for trouble. I asked him once, sternly, "___________please get out from behind the chair."..... he didn't listen after about 30 seconds, so I tried again. "____________get out from behind the chair right now... 1....2....".... I didn't make it to 3.

I'm not trying at all to say you aren't disciplining correctly or anything like that, but maybe your tone of voice could be tweaked a bit. I would be happy to discuss strategies with you, and we can even bounce ideas off of one another.

the world's best mom

Sun, Feb 28 2016, 10:41 pm

Time outs can be extremely effective and easy to carry out at that age. Or sometimes he should not be able to have something until he does what he is told to do. Using your examples:

"I say "don't get the milk and don't open it"--he goes gets the milk, opens the cover and it spills on the floor--and he doesn't want to clean it." "

First, try making your requests into one step requests. Those are much easier to follow. I would say, "Please don't take the milk by yourself."

If he does and it spills, I would say, "I'm sorry, now I won't be able to give you your cereal and milk until you finish cleaning up the mess you made." I might add something about having to listen to Mommy or deal with consequences.

"I tell him "don't take out all of the toys, don't pour them all into the pack n' play" he does it and tells me he'll clean up, but then he doesn't and throws a tantrum."

I would say, "Let's choose one toy to play with at a time. Which toy should we take out now?" If he doesn't listen, I would say, "We can't take out all of the toys at the same time. You need to listen to Mommy." However, that should not be necessary. Do you ever sit on the floor and play with him? If you offer that, even only sometimes, that should help him learn the proper way to play. But then if he dumps all of the toys out, I would say, "I asked you not to take them all out. Now you cannot have supper/a snack/etc. until you clean it all up."

"He asks for a lollipop, I tell him he needs to eat food first, he barely eats, I say no lollipop. He goes to the cabinet and climbs up to get one. I tell him food first, he'll say " it's yucky" and throw it on the floor. I tell him "no lollipop" and a 20 minute kicking shrieking tantrum ensues and he tries to hurt me--he starts ramming into me and it can hurt."

Of course he wants a lollipop. Lollipops are yummy. Maybe he has reason to think that you will cave in and give him the lollipop if he begs hard enough? Does that ever happen? It could also be that he just really wants it very badly and can't control his disappointment.

Crying is not misbehaving. Children do that. There is nothing wrong with giving hugs, kisses and cuddles when he's upset but not hurting you. however, you cannot give him the lollipop until he does what you've originally asked him to do. Keep that in mind before deciding when is a good time to allow it. If a tantrum will cause you to give in, then you're better off just saying yes in the first place. once you've said that he can't have it now, he cannot have it now no matter how hard or how long he tantrums. If he's hurting you then walk away and try to ignore him as well as you can until he calms down enough to be hugged.

My nosh policy is that candy is only for Shabbos, Yom Tov and Rosh Chodesh. However, my children can each have a snack bag or cookies every day. The ones who bring snacks to school can bring one junky snack and the second one has to be healthy. But that's my way of doing things- you don't have to agree. You decide what you want to do and then stick to your guns.

He wants everything done NOW and on his terms.
All children do and that's okay. You make a wise decision about whether something is worth a fight. You tell him your decision and stick with it. If you never give in, he will know that and will not expect to be able to change your mind. He may still get upset sometimes, and that's fine. Help him through his emotions. Empathize and provide the words for him. Say, "I know you are so sad because you wanted a lollipop now. I know it's so hard to wait. But as soon as you eat your supper, you can have it."

Lady Bug

Sun, Feb 28 2016, 11:15 pm

It sounds like you have a determined little go-getter there. I've got one of those and the behaviors you describe are bringing up a sense of deja vu in me.

What worked for me was to remove myself from the battle, both physically and emotionally. I state my piece calmly and then walk out of the room so the whole fun of a tantrum is out. I also try to say yes whenever possible, I let the kid do his own thing as long as it isn't dangerous or terribly wrong, even if it isn't the way I would want it. I also moderate my feelings - am I feeling frustrated, angry, irritated during these encounters? Kids like these pick up on our emotions so quickly, and they exploit it for attention.

So for a while, when he would say I want a lolly, I would say, no problem. I took the fight out of it. Now I rarely have this occuring anymore. If he started throwing toys, I would say one sentence in positive with a consequence - we play with one toy at a time. If you throw the toys, I will pack them away so that you can't play with them anymore, and then leave the room so I don't need to witness his choice and get all emotional about it. When he starts kicking me, I say, I don't let anyone kick me, please stop. And if he doesn't, I walk out of the room.

Try to put the focus on yourself, and on you staying calm, rather than on getting him to behave. It can be way harder, but see how that works out.

5*Mom

Mon, Feb 29 2016, 1:41 am

miami85 wrote:

He does things because it makes sense in his own mind, but then I have to deal with the consequences:
I.e.
I say "don't get the milk and don't open it"--he goes gets the milk, opens the cover and it spills on the floor--and he doesn't want to clean it.

I tell him "don't take out all of the toys, don't pour them all into the pack n' play" he does it and tells me he'll clean up, but then he doesn't and throws a tantrum.

He asks for a lollipop, I tell him he needs to eat food first, he barely eats, I say no lollipop. He goes to the cabinet and climbs up to get one. I tell him food first, he'll say " it's yucky" and throw it on the floor. I tell him "no lollipop" and a 20 minute kicking shrieking tantrum ensues and he tries to hurt me--he starts ramming into me and it can hurt.

He wants everything done NOW and on his terms.

Right. Because he's 3. You gotta work with it, not against it. Everything can't be no all the time. Find ways for him to do the things he wants to do that *will* work for you. You have to put effort in here and you will need to get creative.

My 3-yr-old likes to pour his own milk too, but I also couldn't handle the spills. So every night we prepare a single portion of milk in a little plastic jar and leave it on the door in the fridge. Voila! He is proud that he can pour his own milk without spilling.

A 3-yr-old is old enough and imaginative enough to *need* to spill out a million toys at once but not really old enough to clean them all up on his own. He's going to need some help here. You can make a game out of it - I'll clean up all the red things and you find all the blue things and let's see who's finished first, or who has the most, whatever - but you're going to need to be involved in some way at this age.

About the lolipops, we limit nosh like that to Shabbos and other really special occasions, but for things like cookies or when my kids bake something and then want to eat it, we have learned looooong ago to Give Dessert First. They eat much more real food once dessert is out of the way and they're not obsessively thinking about it anymore. And we don't have to beg or bribe or coerce. If we're going to give something, we just give it and if we're going to say no, it's just gonna be a no. No "if you do abc, you will get xyz." It doesn't work and just creates way more trouble than it's worth.

miami85

Sun, Mar 13 2016, 10:46 am

amother wrote:

Get a belt. Pull pants and underpants off. Belt him really hard, 6 times.

In 20 years have him in therapy complaining about you.

Don't know why I'm saying this....it's what they did to me.

DON'T POTCH. Don't even threaten it. Find another way. Please!

''

Oh come on, I'm not talking belt and pulling-pants down, just a swift reminder that "not listening" is not an option--and its usually the 3rd option of 1)Do what I said 2)Go to bathroom/go to bed 3) "Or you may need to get a potch"--said just like that. And on the rare occasion it does happen, I usually do it on the hand, and more often that not, I miss. I know that this was my mother's method of discipline--her words were actually harsher, and for me it was effective and I don't feel in anyway "abused"--but I rarely did anything warranting a potch, the threat was enough.

I use "positive language" all the time, but the "don't"s and "I said NOT to do xyz" come after being ignored and him insisting on doing things his way. I understand his need for independence, he is very smart, but also careless sometimes. I just don't have the resources and kochos to deal with his way of thinking sometimes and I need to get across to him that Mommy and Daddy are in charge. I mean last week we were crossing the street and he ran a head of me and almost got hit by a car! I didn't potch him because we were outside, but I really yelled at him that he can NEVER do that again (several minutes, after the "sting" of yelling at him subsided I told him how much I loved him and it scared me when he did that.)

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Mar 13 2016, 8:15 pm

First of all, a little bit of validation is in order. This is really hard, really hard and it is so incredibly frustrating for a parent to deal with this. I have a kid like this, probably worse.

Sometimes the problem is the parent not having enough patience at the end of a long day. Take care of yourself. Lock yourself in your bathroom for a few minutes if you need to. Having a snack, have a coffee, make sure to sleep enough, doing a little deep breathing etc]. This is your child that Hashem entrusted to you to help evolve into an adult. Telling him no all the time teaches him he is: a bad person who messes up his mother's life, you can't stand him when he is like that, he can't control himself, he is always messing things up, can't do anything, and shouldn't bother to try hard. Not exactly the recipe that we want for our kids.
We want our kids to feel the opposite: They are smart, likable, good, capable, strong, and can learn anything they put their minds to, and their parents are proud of them. Power struggles don't work. If we "win" they hate us. If we "lose" we undermined our parenting and they think they don't have to listen in the future.

What finally worked for us after a few years of trying and failing with the power struggles was:

1. change our mindset. When kids do this sort of behavior, we tend to feel like "my child is messing up my life when I want to be watching tv/relaxing/going out with friends. just shut up and cooperate and raise yourself." Realizing that you might be feeling this--even just a little--is the first step to undoing it. Slowly you can tell yourself, "no. there is nothing I rather do than raise my children! I am their MOTHER! This is an opportunity to help my child bond with me and learn emotional strength. I need to calm down and get ready to do this properly."
2. Start to treat him with RESPECT. Many parents do not do this. When you dismiss a child's questions or talk about them in front of them or give them degrading punishments, you teach them that you are important and then are not. Children need to be listened to with eye contact, given real information when they want to understand something, and disciplined only when really necessary, in private.
3. Children want to know what is going on and love explanations. Usually, when children understand, they start to listen to the rules better. They are curious, not trying to mess things up. We explain the reasons behind the rules and then they are more willing to follow them. ["the reason we want to clean up your toys and put them in the right boxes is because I want it to be fun for you when you play, and if you have five clics and 5 magnitles and two tools in a box, you won't want to play with any of those toys!"] Instead of answering questions with things like "thats the way it is" or "you will understand when you are older," pause and try to come up with a real answer.
Make things in their best interest: "you don't want to clean your room. Aww. Too bad, you won't be able to have a nice room then. That's so sad." Walk out. Do NOT do it for them. It's their problem.
4. Children want to master skills, not be told not to try something that is too hard for them. So let them! Help them! Instead of fighting with him that he is too little to do things, when he went to do something we thought he was incapable of, we helped him practice the skill. [At age three he cut his own fingernails, poured himself drinks from a pitcher, and cut slices of cucumber. At age 4.5 he could sew on buttons, hammer nails into the wall, and pat his baby brother's back until he fell asleep. These things didn't come easily at first, they came because he tried to do them, and instead of saying no, stop, I said, "you are pretty strong/smart/artistic etc, I bet you can do this. Let me teach you and we'll practice together."
5. Children are desperate to have some control/independence over life. The fact is, they ARE little people and the world mostly *happens* to them. Some kids need it more than others, but kids need to feel they can make choices, they can say no [this is healthy, if a kid can never say no, they can become a victim of bullying or worse],
6. Kids are not born knowing how to negotiate compromise, have manners, or have adult conversations. You need to teach them. When you yell NO and get into power struggles, you teach them that is what they should do when they don't get their way; yell and try to be stronger. When you slow down, sit down next to him, look into his eyes, and calmly discuss the problem, while really trying to understand him and come to a solution that will make both of you happy, you are teaching him a skill that will not only benefit him later, but it will benefit you NOW.
7. Seeing you fall apart and get hysterical erodes your child's trust that you will be unconditionally loving to him. No child wants to be bad. Children want attention. Children want affection. Sometimes this behavior comes when they want to test if you really love them. Don't make them feel the answer is no. The children that are the most sensitive can sometimes act the strongest or be the smartest.
8. With something dangerous, especially with a smart kid, the key is helping them see how a behavior is in their best interest, and educating them with ample knowledge. When a child is really educated about what a car can do, chas v shalom, and you love them so much and don't want anything to happen to them AT A TIME OTHER THEN WHEN YOU WANT THE DESIRED BEHAVIOR, they are likely to listen unless they are on the autistic spectrum or don't have the language or comprehension.

I hope some of this can be helpful for you. Your post pushed a button for me because with our own child I realized how we were slowly ruining him. We had to start play therapy with him, and BH, after changing our parenting he is a different child and I am a different mother.
You are the only one that can help your child in the way a mother can, and you need to fortify yourself to have patience, and rebuild the relationship and trust should have.