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I love my daughters in law... but!
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 7:13 am
Its true that some people think the single girl "should" help and do it all since "she doesn't have children" etc. and everyone else "needs to rest". Good for you op for setting an example that this is not okay in your home and everyone needs to pitch in. Your daughter will do her part when she has husband and children IY"H but a single girl is not on call to help everyone with everything. Everything in its own time and place.
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gp2.0




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 7:14 am
Im going to agree with chani8 here and say that maybe the younger generation is helping more, but IME the man is "the head of the table" in chassidishe homes at the very least, dunno about charedi across the board. He may help clear the table but he doesn't serve.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 7:37 am
I find this thread to be extremely sad.
I live on a different continent than my in laws but we live a few minutes drive from my parents. Many times all of us siblings go to my parents for shabbat. We all, including my husband and brother in laws and sister in law all help when we are able. How awful it is not to help. There are times when my parents sit the whole time and other times when some of us sit. But everyone helps out at some point, even the grandchildren who are old enough (that includes a 3 year old who loves to help Wink )

I feel like if you are a guest in someone's home, a family member or not, it is very important to help. Again, it does not have to be sponjaing the floor. It can be something as simple as taking in the salatim from the table or wiping off the crumbs. But do something. Anything. Think of all of the work your hosts, again, family or not, have put in so that they were able to have guests over to begin with.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:00 am
Slightly different perspective here...
I am newly married (almost a year) and NO kids yet which I think makes a big difference in the issue at hand.
When I go to my MIL for shabbos (which is about once a month) I always end up feeling a bit resentful. I was raised to help and would never be a guest someone for shabbos without helping. HOWEVER I feel like I am the only one helping at my MIL! I am not overworked- I don't cook there or wash dishes, but along with my MIL I am serving every course and cleaning every course, and occasionally either sweeping or setting the table. You are probably all thinking I'm a brat for complaining but the only reason this bothers me is because my MIL has THREE able-bodied high school age girls who are more than capable of helping out- and do at times- but only a FRACTION of what I do.
A typical shabbos will look like this- MIL will get up to serve first course. Not one of her daughters will follow. I will follow and help. 10 minutes later one of them strolls in to take the last dip out to the table. Fine. Next course- I wait a bit longer after MIL gets up to see if one of my sister in laws will follow. They don't. MIL yells- CAN SOMEONE HELP ME? at this point it feels super awkward for me to just sit there so I get up (I think her actual daughters don't really feel awkward ignoring their mother). The next course I am feeling even more annoyed so I wait even longer. MIL yells for help again, soemthing like "Why am I the only one serving? get up and help!" So again I get up and help.
Im not saying all the work should fall on someones single daughter while their married DILs sit back and relax. but I think daughters do have more of an achrayus to help their mother. In my mothers house I am happy to pitch in and do my share- because everyone else does theirs too.
(And just saying, if it continues like this, I can see myself getting super fed up and not getting up from the table once I have kids, just as a chance to not help and let my sister in laws do everything. hehe)
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:00 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:

I feel like if you are a guest in someone's home, a family member or not, it is very important to help. Again, it does not have to be sponjaing the floor. It can be something as simple as taking in the salatim from the table or wiping off the crumbs. But do something. Anything. Think of all of the work your hosts, again, family or not, have put in so that they were able to have guests over to begin with.


I am fairly certain that most of the people here saying that they aren't able to help at their in-laws will do something small but are unable to help as much as they'd like to.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:02 am
Slightly different perspective here...
I am newly married (almost a year) and NO kids yet which I think makes a big difference in the issue at hand.
When I go to my MIL for shabbos (which is about once a month) I always end up feeling a bit resentful. I was raised to help and would never be a guest someone for shabbos without helping. HOWEVER I feel like I am the only one helping at my MIL! I am not overworked- I don't cook there or wash dishes, but along with my MIL I am serving every course and cleaning every course, and occasionally either sweeping or setting the table. You are probably all thinking I'm a brat for complaining but the only reason this bothers me is because my MIL has THREE able-bodied high school age girls who are more than capable of helping out- and do at times- but only a FRACTION of what I do.
A typical shabbos will look like this- MIL will get up to serve first course. Not one of her daughters will follow. I will follow and help. 10 minutes later one of them strolls in to take the last dip out to the table. Fine. Next course- I wait a bit longer after MIL gets up to see if one of my sister in laws will follow. They don't. MIL yells- CAN SOMEONE HELP ME? at this point it feels super awkward for me to just sit there so I get up (I think her actual daughters don't really feel awkward ignoring their mother). The next course I am feeling even more annoyed so I wait even longer. MIL yells for help again, soemthing like "Why am I the only one serving? get up and help!" So again I get up and help.
Im not saying all the work should fall on someones single daughter while their married DILs sit back and relax. but I think daughters do have more of an achrayus to help their mother. In my mothers house I am happy to pitch in and do my share- because everyone else does theirs too.
(And just saying, if it continues like this, I can see myself getting super fed up and not getting up from the table once I have kids, just as a chance to not help and let my sister in laws do everything. hehe)
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:10 am
I posted earlier that op should ask her sons to help. A lot of people have posted since then that everyone should pitch in, regardless of gender or whether they are the child or the in-law. I agree with this in theory but I am a DIL who doesn't help and I'll explain why:

1) I am terrified that I will mess up my MIL's kashrus. She keeps a lot of chumras that we don't keep and also I am a vegetarian so I am not used to dealing with dealing with a milk and meat kitchen.

2) I've been married for a year and every time I have asked "is there anything I can do?" She says "no no sit, you're our kallah! Don't get up!" Even though I won't be a kallah forever and there will come a time that it will seem weird that I'm still being waited on, I feel uncomfortable continuing to offer after I've been rejected a bunch of times.

3) the kitchen is very badly organized. I can't even make myself a coffee. They have about three dairy spoons and generally use plastic, which is kept in a box hidden in a broken cupboard and behind other many other boxes, kitchen utensils, and plastic bags. I'm afraid the whole cupboard is going to fall out on the floor if I dig around too much so I usually have to call in my husband or a SIL. It even takes them a few minutes to find me a spoon.

I would love to be helpful but at this point I would need my MIL to basically say, "could you please cut this onion on this cutting board with this knife". I would not be offended for her to ask me this, actually I'd be thrilled.

I don't know if any of these examples apply to any of the MILs here. But if you want your DILs to help they need to feel comfortable in your kitchen. I think the best way to this is to ask for help with specific tasks instead of expecting them to feel comfortable just pitching in.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:13 am
Honeydew hear ya and good for you. just want to say ...wait til you have teenagers. nuff said. cut your MIL some slack and good for you for setting a beautiful example and for making the choice and having the satisfaction to do the right thing.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:15 am
Sadie wrote:
I posted earlier that op should ask her sons to help. A lot of people have posted since then that everyone should pitch in, regardless of gender or whether they are the child or the in-law. I agree with this in theory but I am a DIL who doesn't help and I'll explain why:

1) I am terrified that I will mess up my MIL's kashrus. She keeps a lot of chumras that we don't keep and also I am a vegetarian so I am not used to dealing with dealing with a milk and meat kitchen.

2) I've been married for a year and every time I have asked "is there anything I can do?" She says "no no sit, you're our kallah! Don't get up!" Even though I won't be a kallah forever and there will come a time that it will seem weird that I'm still being waited on, I feel uncomfortable continuing to offer after I've been rejected a bunch of times.

3) the kitchen is very badly organized. I can't even make myself a coffee. They have about three dairy spoons and generally use plastic, which is kept in a box hidden in a broken cupboard and behind other many other boxes, kitchen utensils, and plastic bags. I'm afraid the whole cupboard is going to fall out on the floor if I dig around too much so I usually have to call in my husband or a SIL. It even takes them a few minutes to find me a spoon.

I would love to be helpful but at this point I would need my MIL to basically say, "could you please cut this onion on this cutting board with this knife". I would not be offended for her to ask me this, actually I'd be thrilled.

I don't know if any of these examples apply to any of the MILs here. But if you want your DILs to help they need to feel comfortable in your kitchen. I think the best way to this is to ask for help with specific tasks instead of expecting them to feel comfortable just pitching in.


Seriously asking, why not ask your DH to show you around the kitchen?
And also, why do you need to wait for your in laws to ask you for help? In our home, nobody asks, and nobody waits to be asked, everyone just gets up and does what they can.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:15 am
Good point sadie...I also don't like to go in other peoples kitchens thats why I offer to do other things like watch their kids or bring something or clear....
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:16 am
And if I stay somewhere thats tough for me to navigate making a coffee I bring my own stuff discreetly like plastic hot cup and plastic spoons and instant or ready made coffee or a gift of enough of these things for everyone or something. Where there's a will theres' a way.
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:23 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Seriously asking, why not ask your DH to show you around the kitchen?
And also, why do you need to wait for your in laws to ask you for help? In our home, nobody asks, and nobody waits to be asked, everyone just gets up and does what they can.


There's not really a way around the kitchen.
And I have offered to help, and I always get told to sit down. I don't know if they plan to continue this after the first year but it ends up making me feel intimidated by the kitchen.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:27 am
amother wrote:
Slightly different perspective here...
I am newly married (almost a year) and NO kids yet which I think makes a big difference in the issue at hand.
When I go to my MIL for shabbos (which is about once a month) I always end up feeling a bit resentful. I was raised to help and would never be a guest someone for shabbos without helping. HOWEVER I feel like I am the only one helping at my MIL! I am not overworked- I don't cook there or wash dishes, but along with my MIL I am serving every course and cleaning every course, and occasionally either sweeping or setting the table. You are probably all thinking I'm a brat for complaining but the only reason this bothers me is because my MIL has THREE able-bodied high school age girls who are more than capable of helping out- and do at times- but only a FRACTION of what I do.
A typical shabbos will look like this- MIL will get up to serve first course. Not one of her daughters will follow. I will follow and help. 10 minutes later one of them strolls in to take the last dip out to the table. Fine. Next course- I wait a bit longer after MIL gets up to see if one of my sister in laws will follow. They don't. MIL yells- CAN SOMEONE HELP ME? at this point it feels super awkward for me to just sit there so I get up (I think her actual daughters don't really feel awkward ignoring their mother). The next course I am feeling even more annoyed so I wait even longer. MIL yells for help again, soemthing like "Why am I the only one serving? get up and help!" So again I get up and help.
Im not saying all the work should fall on someones single daughter while their married DILs sit back and relax. but I think daughters do have more of an achrayus to help their mother. In my mothers house I am happy to pitch in and do my share- because everyone else does theirs too.
(And just saying, if it continues like this, I can see myself getting super fed up and not getting up from the table once I have kids, just as a chance to not help and let my sister in laws do everything. hehe)


There is no connection between your helping out and what the daughters do. I understand your frustration with them as people, and possibly with your mil/fil's chinuch skills in this regard, but your helping is completely unrelated. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm nowheres close to being an mil, as long as mil is up and serving, cooking, cleaning, so should you be. Even if the dil's were up and doing it as well. Plus you are older. So for you to sit around like them is much worse.

I think you are doing 100% the right thing in fully helping, and like was said above, you will be a lesson to your own b'ah children in the future, and to your teenage dils as well!
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Sadie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:33 am
amother wrote:
And if I stay somewhere thats tough for me to navigate making a coffee I bring my own stuff discreetly like plastic hot cup and plastic spoons and instant or ready made coffee or a gift of enough of these things for everyone or something. Where there's a will theres' a way.


That's a good idea. Honestly I am just used to my husband doing everything for me in his parents' house. If we are there for more than five minutes my FIL will say to my husband "have you offered your wife a drink?" It's how you get into a behavioral rut.

Maybe I should have a spinoff: "I'm a DIL who feel intimidated by my MIL's kitchen, what should I do"? My post is really advice for the MILs- if you ask for what you want, your DILs will probably be happy to do it for you, with no hard feelings or offense taken.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 8:41 am
I'm not a MIL yet, but we do have Shabbos guests so I know how much work it is. We're in a small apartment with narrow hallways, and the kitchen isn't directly attached to the dining room, so I prefer that not more than one other person help me- otherwise there's traffic and things get dropped or spilled. I also don't like plates stacked until they're in the sink with water run in between them, otherwise they're a pain to clean.

If anyone with small kids comes, I much prefer they watch their kids than that they attempt to help me in the kitchen! That went doubly so before we had any baby-proofing up, but even so, the table isn't exactly child-proofed and if everybody's clearing at once, nobody's watching the table or the kids.

That said, I certainly try to help where I can, but if I'm your guest and your home is not babyproofed to my standards, I will be watching my kids. If a single sister/SIL is entertaining my kids, then I'll happily help in the kitchen- but what's it matter who's doing which job (kitchen help or childminding)? They both need doing.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 10:38 am
When I go to my mils house, I am usually either sick or exhausted that I couldn't make shabbos myself. My mil gets up every course to serve etc and she always stands and goes back and forth to the kitchen busying herself when there is no need to be.
Sometimes I will get up to help other times I will ask my husband to do it as I am too tired. I know she is tired too, we always tell her if she is tired not to invite us.
But cleaning up the toys etc that my kids played with? Always. I mean it's our mess. Same for cleaning off the table, I will get my kids to help too.

But my mil prides herself on being exhausted and overworked meaning if I come there and crash on the couch she will say "you look exhausted, I am also I did xxxxx yyyyyy zzzzz and and and bla bla bla I am so tired I fell asleep as soon as I got into bed and THEN I EVEN woke up at 6 to finish _____". She likes it I guess so I don't feel too guilty when she overworks herself in the kitchen. I do get why a dil wouldn't get up to help her mil - so many reasons , if you want their help tell them! Tell your son I really want to have you for shabbs but I will need help cleaning and cooking/serving this week.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 11:22 am
dizzy wrote:
op here.
Last time I visited imamother this post was only one page so wow! I had a lot to catch up... Thanks to all dil and mil for your responses and maybe had I posted earlier I would have saved you some time and energy Smile ...

Yes, my sons help. (and I'm chareidi) Clearing off the table is mostly done by the men, which include my sons and dh.

I very much understand dil p-o-v since it's not that long ago that I myself visited my mil, and yes, I know that times have changed, but I too had to run after my children and children don't change, but if it did ever happen that I COULDNT help in any way I would at least make sure to clear down one bottle from the table, just to show that I care and tried. Or I would tell my husband to watch the baby for five minutes so that I can remove the table cloths and push in the chairs. It really doesnt take much to do one small thing to show you tried.
...
and dear dil, I do want you to visit. and I do enjoy you very much, and no I don't want you to feel pressured in any way, I want you to feel as comfortable and happy as possible, but all I ask of you is a little courtesy and consideration.

conclusion for myself: I will ask my dil for help in a very nonchalant manner, like "Oh, we need one more extra hand here in the kitchen, Shifra, can you please take this in to so and so." It won't be easy for me, since I've never done that, but I will pat myself on the back for doing it.


See the two bolded parts, which are conflicting. You say you would ask dh to hold baby so you can help clear off. But you say your sons are helping. So you are upset that your dil is holding baby and son is helping, instead of vice versa?

You gotta expect that one of them at least will be busy with the kids. If the other is helping, as you say your sons are, what are you complaining about???????
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 11:26 am
amother wrote:
See the two bolded parts, which are conflicting. You say you would ask dh to hold baby so you can help clear off. But you say your sons are helping. So you are upset that your dil is holding baby and son is helping, instead of vice versa?

You gotta expect that one of them at least will be busy with the kids. If the other is helping, as you say your sons are, what are you complaining about???????


I wondered the same.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 11:30 am
Also, I love how in some families, humans of the male persuasion get away with "being helpful" by simply clearing off the table while the women are only considered helpful if they clean toys, care for kids, serve food, tidy up, help in kitchen....

Clearing the table is really not a big deal as compared to what the women are expected to do.

Argh. Traditional gender roles are so imbalanced.

Wink
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Mar 08 2016, 11:38 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I find this thread to be extremely sad.
I live on a different continent than my in laws but we live a few minutes drive from my parents. Many times all of us siblings go to my parents for shabbat. We all, including my husband and brother in laws and sister in law all help when we are able. How awful it is not to help. There are times when my parents sit the whole time and other times when some of us sit. But everyone helps out at some point, even the grandchildren who are old enough (that includes a 3 year old who loves to help Wink )

I feel like if you are a guest in someone's home, a family member or not, it is very important to help. Again, it does not have to be sponjaing the floor. It can be something as simple as taking in the salatim from the table or wiping off the crumbs. But do something. Anything. Think of all of the work your hosts, again, family or not, have put in so that they were able to have guests over to begin with.


I think everyone is helping to some degree. I cant imagine that some are literally doing nothing. The explanations are as to why its not more help.
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