Relating to someone who is mechallel Shabbos

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 2:40 am

I know, I know, I KNOW I have to ask my own Rabbi. I am looking for an interim answer from people who might have asked these questions or learned this topic before because it is harder than it looks to get in touch with a rabbi who can answer these questions sensitively, and chances are I won't get an answer before situations come up.

DH is no longer shomer Shabbos. I don't think anyone else knows yet but he told me. He definitely uses his computer on Shabbos and carries with no eiruv, and possibly also travels by bus or car. This is not like an internet addiction type of using computer on Shabbos, this is a genuine rejection of religion with absolutely no doubts or regrets. I was pretty sure of this before but he just recently revealed details that confirm it.

Does this affect me halachically? Can he still be motzie me and my children with things like kiddush and havdalah if he's violating Shabbos when we're not looking? (he keeps up a front for the kids... for now. Don't know how long that will last.)

I don't know the details but I know this affects community participation - is he allowed to be counted for a minyan or given an aliyah? (not sure why he'd want one but as I'm a little confused about his exact comings and goings...) If so do I have to tell someone so they won't use him for these things?

Are there any other halachos regarding a person who is mechallel shabbos that affect other people?

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 6:41 am

There's a difference between simply mechallel Shabbos and mechallel Shabbos befarhesya (in public). The latter does affect many of the things you brought up or even yayin nesech. However, it's not a simple matter of "in public", it's a very specific category that is very hard to actually qualify for. Your husband definitely doesn't qualify now and probably won't even if he did come out in the community about where he's holding. Obviously ask a rav to find out at what point it would become an issue, but it isn't one yet.

DrMom

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 6:41 am

I think there are bigger issues at stake than if your DH can make kiddush for you. You can always solve that by having everyone over bar/bat mitzvah age make his/her own kiddush in unison.

The question I would have is how this impacts your marriage and home life in the long term? Is the plan to hide it from then children forever? At some point, I think this will become too much of a burden for him, and also for you.

Have you tried a marriage counselor to help you sort through these issues?

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 9:24 am

chani8, I will have to talk to a rav but I don't think this applies here. He may have whatever emotional baggage triggered this, but he is coming at it from a cold, calculated perspective. He is not mentally ill and not going to change his mind no matter what. He did a lot of historical and philosophical research, came to the conclusion that the torah is not believable enough for him, and decided that he does not want to be burdened with mitzvah observance anymore. The kind of things that I have heard from him I really don't see how he could be granted excuses. He may theoretically have obligations but he has firmly rejected them.

Amother and m in israel, he seems to not want anyone to know about it yet he leaves the house on shabbos with his large briefcase (we do not live in any type of eiruv) and takes public transportation to use his computer either at a non-religious friend's home or in a public place, I'm not sure which he uses on Shabbos. Seems pretty public to me.

DrMom I am looking for specifically short-term halachic advice in this thread.

naturalmom5

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 10:14 am

There was a yid who started to work, on Shabbos because he felt he had no choice.
Reb Elchonon was in America and was asked.

He cried and said "Oy nor in America ken paseerin a za shaila" ( only in America is there such a question) ask R Ruvain Benges.

He poskined that he can be motzi his wife but not himself, because he is merely giving aidus (testimony) for other people . But he can't for himself, based on a Chazon Ish (which is beyond the scope of this post)

Possibly your case is different, because he rejects it all as opposed to where he just feels he has no choice and tries to keep what he can outside of work.

DrMom

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 10:19 am

amother wrote:

You should be prepared for the fact that eventually he will be spotted by someone in your community. I know that wasn't your question but...

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Mar 10 2016, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

So that's why I said it's complicated, "in public" doesn't mean simply in public. Just because he gets on a public bus on Shabbos, or walks down the street talking on his phone, doesn't mean he meets the halachik definition of befarhesya. He doesn't at this point. He may meet that definition down the line, which is why you need to get some guidance for your halachik concerns, but right now it's not an issue.

chani8

Fri, Mar 11 2016, 3:15 am

You have to be careful not to place a stumbling block in front of your children with regard to kibbud Av. Your children can absolutely be yotzi his brachos as they are children, or for the older ones, his children (kibbud av).

If you are not comfortable then say the brachos quietly to yourself but answer amen for chinuch purposes. Since you are still married so you are still under the safety net of Shalom Bayis (listening to your DH) until your DH's status has been halachically/legally labelled as an apikorsis. So if he were to tell you to make motzi on a banana, you could do so and not be oiver.

I'm just brainstorming here with you, OP. I hope you get the clarity you need. I can imagine you are very angry about his apikorsis and you are allowed to hate him for that, apparently. However, once you hate him, you can't have relations, I believe. And then, he can divorce you. So, it gets quite ugly, fast.

If he had any childhood trauma, though, then it justifies all of this, even though he is coming at it from a logical perspective. He may separate his logic from his past, but we dont have to, for the sake of not deeming him an apikorsis. The goal (of the rabbi) is to find a way to not give him that status. Though I am not sure that is your goal.

amother

Wine

Fri, Mar 11 2016, 10:16 am

I am a woman who, like your husband, went OTD post-marriage.

I did a great deal of searching and studying. I created a document of all my unanswered questions. For over a year, I studied and asked questions and constantly sought to resolve my questions about Judaism.

Eventually, my document reached 25 pages. That is twenty five pages of questions about contemporary chareidi Judaism.

I tried other forms of Judaism. I tried modern orthodoxy. I even tried a form of Karaite-Judaism. I tried a "go back to the basics and figure it out yourself" approach.

Then, one day, I woke up and realized something: I DID NOT BELEIVE A GOD AS WE DEFINE IT COULD HAVE WRITTEN THE TORAH.

I thought I could go on as usual, but being orthoprax, but it was impossible. Suddenly, all the things that annoyed me about Judaism -- like not using a sponge to do dishes on Shabbos -- were impossible.

I thought for sure I'd have to divorce my husband. I had been raised to beleive that religion always has to come first; that people with different lifestyles cannot raise a family together.

My husband thought differently. He married me because, quite simply, life is better when we are together. He was not willing to let me go just because I took showers on Shabbos.

Additionally, his parents are BTs. Or anyway, one is. The other still goes to work on Shabbos. They've made it work for 30 years through love and compromise.

We looked into the halachos. Some things you should know:

Until a Jew is mechalel Shabbos in front of ten frum men, he has a chezkas kashrus, and you have to trust him as a frum Jew. (That said, he probably shouldn't be a witness at a wedding just in case.)

Also, if a Jew is mechalel Shabbos, you may not have hana'a from it until enough time has passed after Shabbos that it could have been done after Shabbos. So, for example, if your husband bakes a cake on Shabbos, it is perfectly okay for you to eat it two hours after Shabbos.

A few more things: be careful which rabbi you consult with. Google Eli Mandel's story for what can happen when a rabbi decides it's his life mission to tear your family apart.

Also, there is a FB support group for the spouses of OTD mixed Marraiges. If you are interested, post below and I'll contact you. (That said, it's not very active. But Eli Mandel's wife hosts occasional meet-ups.)

naturalmom5

Fri, Mar 11 2016, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

Sorry to be petty... But if you aren't frum , then how are you permitted to be on this forum..
Just curious if the rules were changed..

marina

Fri, Mar 11 2016, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for this great post!