Toms River (and Lakewood) in the news

Mevater

Mon, Mar 14 2016, 11:39 pm

Two questions:

1- If toxic levels are so high in Toms River, why wasnt Toms River listed here:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.s......html

Looks like New Jersey is one toxic state.

2- How are couples whose husbands have spent years in Kollel, and many who have bought homes there, ther husbands are still not working, buying homes that cost upwards of $600,000 in Toms River? Where are the down payments coming from, where are the mortgage payments coming from? Yes the prices are lower than Brooklyn., but theyre still a lot for Kollel couples.

cnc

Mon, Mar 14 2016, 11:44 pm

Mevater wrote:

A) parental help
B) They have money saved up.None is putting down 600K. They're putting down a down payment which they may have taken a loan for. (Although to be honest all of the people that I know that bought there or are looking there (quite a few) are working.

Mama Bear

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 12:38 am

It is such a beautiful testament to the growth of the Jewish people. 70 years after the Holocaust, we have officially outgrown the biggest enclaves: Lakewood, Monsey, Brooklyn. And people are looking to expand, so first they try to expand nearby. The fear of the non Jewish neighbors is very apropro now before pesach, check the hagada: הבה נתחכמה לו, פן ירבה? but really, *where are we suppposed to go* if no one wants to have us??? The only country in the world that we're still welcome in is the US, and even here they won't have us?! and don't tell me to move to Eretz Yisroel, bc our neighbors there dont let us expand either....

treestump

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 12:50 am

Mama Bear wrote:

I think you're taking a rather simplistic view of the situation...

Imagine if Williamsburg became the hot spot for non Jews who happen to have very large families. You've been living in your house peacefully for decades, and all of a sudden brokers are bombarding you and banging your doors down. Some of them are rather intimidating, some use persuasion tactics that were downright creepy.

It gets worse and worse every day. Your neighbors all complain of the same story.

Some of them start moving in. Prices are shooting up, and so is the noise level. Traffic is getting heavier.

Random strangers start coming up your block and asking your kids playing innocently outside which house is theirs.

Would you feel disturbed and try to curb the mushrooming of noisy, intruding strangers who are invading your peaceful town and way of life?

That is what the people in Toms River feel like.

I'm not saying that Lakewood families shouldn't move to Toms River; I understand the housing issue is a huge problem. BTDT.

But you have to understand the other perfectly valid perspective as well.

Marion

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 1:13 am

My sister lives in Toms' River. There is a non-Orthodox community there. No school; the families who want to send to day school mostly send to a Solomon Schechter school about 45 minutes away (I don't remember the name of the town in which it's located). She says she suffers from a split personality disorder - in Toms' River they are the most frum family; when she goes to Lakewood to use the mikvah she feels like a shiksa. They daven at the Conservative shul because her husband is the chazzan there; finding a house within walking distance of the shul was a challenge. No eruv on Shabbat when you're EXPECTED to be in shul (with a baby or toddler) is a challenge. No kosher section at the local supermarkets is a challenge. But this is not a community that is willing to pay more for "heimishe" hechsherim, so even Lakewood moving in and some of these things becoming available, is not a bonus. (In fact, I seem to recall my sister bemoaning that the Lakewood Shoprite no longer has a kosher section either? Or it closed or something like that.) It's not necessarily only the non-Jews that don't want the ultra-orthodox moving in.

Mevater

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 11:01 am

treestump wrote:

I totally agree, if the neighborhood you have lived in for ages, and love, all of a sudden totally changes, and the people who move in, want very little to do with their neighbors who are different than them, and are almost martian-like to the Toms River crowd, its very traumatic.

Many frum sheltered people dont realize how "unique" they look and behave in the eyes of not frum or not Jewish people. They just think the world was made for them, Bishvili Nivra Haolam, they can do as they please, as long as theyre not committing a crime, and sometimes even if theyre committing a crime ; - /.

Mevater

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 11:36 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I don't live in this area so I can't really comment on the details. But I do think that as much as we talk about anti semism, it does behoove us to not give people more reasons to hate us. In other words we should be careful not to make a chillul Hashem. Is that talked about in RW schools?

Unfortunately, NEVER in any of the schools I sent my kids to. All I was ever told in school, and all my kids were ever told, is "outsiders" will hate us ANYHOW, no matter how nice we are! So do what you have to do and dont pay attention to what "outsiders" say or feel. "Outsiders" have always hated Jews, its natural.

spring13

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 12:18 pm

Mevater wrote:

Exactly, thank you. If you're moving into a new neighborhood, it's derech eretz to show some regard for your neighbors' expectations and desires, especially when those desires are completely normal and legitimate - things like quiet, uncongested streets, a reasonable number of homes per lot, not having to deal with constant requests for azoning variances that change the face of the perfectly nice neighborhood, not having the school board and local government hijacked by people with an agenda, and not being solicited by overbearing real estate agents trying to get them to sell. The worries they have about becoming the new Lakewood are valid, even if there are people expressing them in hateful or inappropriate ways. I bet there are some straight-up antisemites, but lumping everyone under that category is rude and completely unproductive.

Taking over the neighboring towns just isn't the right answer for Lakewood's overcrowding problem and burgeoning population: the community leaders need to be honest about that and start considering some more viable alternatives.

tigerwife

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 12:32 pm

spring13 wrote:

Taking over the neighboring towns just isn't the right answer for Lakewood's overcrowding problem and burgeoning population: the community leaders need to be honest about that and start considering some more viable alternatives.

From what I know, this has nothing to do with community leaders. There are plenty of individuals who see huge plots of land in Toms River with affordable down payments (850k is a lot! Many people were buying for 400k) and close enough to their family and friends. Doesn't that sound enticing? I know several young families who just made the move. It has less to do with 'Lakewood as a community' and more to do with young people looking for better housing solutions. I don't think anyone consulted daas Torah asking if they are allowed to move slightly out so that they can get more for their money. What would 'community leaders' (who is that even? I don't see Lakewood as a community at all.) be able to control?

BayMom

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 12:48 pm

treestump wrote:

That's exactly what's happening in Williamsburg and Boro Park. The hipsters are pricing out the Jews in Williamsburg and the Chinese are pricing them out in Boro Park. And there's nothing anyone can do about it. It's called 'changing demographics'.

m in Israel

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 1:11 pm

tigerwife wrote:

That's really strange. Surprising that your experience with RW schools never covered chillul Hash.m.

Agreed. In my own RW elementary and high schools as well as the RW schools I sent my kids to in NY and here in Israel there was always a ton of talk about "making a kiddush Hashem". I don't remember single trip we went on in elementary school that wasn't prefaced by a reminder that "people are watching you, they know you are Jewish, make sure to act appropriately". We learned about the severity of chillul Hashem ("even Yom Kippur is not mechaper!!") and my kids are definitely taught this as well. Whether people actually are careful/aware enough to always act this way is of course a different story -- but my kids were certainly never taught to "not care" what others think because they hate us anyway. (Even when taught concepts like "aisav sonai l'yaakov", it was never implied that therefore we can do what we want without thought to how we are perceived).

spring13

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 1:39 pm

tigerwife wrote:

That's not problematic per se. But what about someone who sees a nice plot of available land within driving distance of X yeshiva and decides to maximize his opportunity by cramming in a bunch of townhomes that can then be sold or rented to a whole bunch of people? THAT kind of thing changes the neighborhood, and I think that kind of thing is part of the Lakewood effect that the neighboring towns are hoping to avoid (not to mention other concerns listed in my post). If it was just a matter of a few available houses or properties being bought by Jews it wouldn't be such a big deal, that happens all the time in small out of town communities without causing a stir. It's when the Jews who buy up go out of their way to ignore others' concerns and remake the place in their image that people balk.

And I'm not an expert on Lakewood dynamics, but I can't imagine that yeshiva guys aren't encouraged to stick around for various reasons. And if the overcrowding and school drama is as bad as I hear it is, why aren't more people voluntarily moving away from the area?

Because I don't have a lot of personal experience with how things are in Lakewood, I'm going to try to stop commenting here before I say something really clueless that wrecks what I think are valid arguments up to this point. But these concerns - about community spread, trying to build institutions in areas not originally designed for them, population density and the attendant issues with things like services and traffic - do crop up in my town, and I really hope we can learn from the problems in Lakewood and Monsey and avoid having them become this heated and embarrassing. Because yeah, it's embarrassing for the entire frum community, regardless of who's officially right or wrong.

Maya

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 2:00 pm

BayMom wrote:

Not really. There are no hipsters living in the parts of South Williamsburg that have been Chassidish for decades. What's happened is that the Chassidish people started to expand farther into BedSty and other surrounding areas, and that's where the competition is with higher prices. Hipsters are not knocking down anyone's doors on Ross St or Lee Ave.

Mevater

Tue, Mar 15 2016, 2:35 pm

m in Israel wrote:

Id like to see a poll that would gauge how many of us heard the shmuess you heard, to "be super careful not to make a Chilul Hashem" (the right way), in comparison to how many have heard teachers say "they hate us anyhow".