Another tuition vent....

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Mar 20 2016, 9:38 pm

I just got my tuition contract for my younger son who will I'h be going into 4rd grade next year. Including the dinner fee the tuition is around 13k. My problem is that while we can probably stretch ourselves to afford it, I feel that I'm paying somebody else's bill and we are not making enough money to be agreeable to that. I don't believe that the cost of educating each 4th grader is 13k per year. I realize there is no solution on the horizon. I'm just venting my frustration.

watergirl

Sun, Mar 20 2016, 9:58 pm

Before this turns into another one of those "why should I pay somebody elses bill" threads, thank your lucky stars that your son attends a school where they provide tuition assistance. Be thankful that you can pay what they are asking even though you are not "agreeable" to it, then give thanks again that you know that if you ever find yourselves down on your luck, they will provide for you the same way that hey provide for others. Remember: you are simply the stewards for that money, and it was provided to you for a reason.

Last edited by watergirl on Sun, Mar 20 2016, 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Mar 20 2016, 10:45 pm

Depending on the school you send to, 13k may not be so far off from the real number...

If there are 20 kids in the class, that is 260k for each class, not so hard to believe that is the real number in a good school.

Even the Lakewood schools, who don't offer "extras" spend close to that. They cut costs everywhere and overload classrooms to keep tuition down.

If your son is growing and succeeding, consider it a great investment.

Some schools will accept full tuition without obligating you to the dinner fund.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Mar 20 2016, 11:08 pm

amother wrote:

There are approximately 22 boys in each elementary class and 2 parallel classes for each grade. The upper grades are more than 13k and the lower grades are less than 13k so I'll average it out to 13k throughout elementary school. If everyone would pay full tuition, the yeshiva would generate 286k per class. I'm estimating the rebbe and English teacher make 86k combined. That would leave 3.2 million. There's 2 principles, 2 assistant principals, 3 people in the office, Maintenance workers, utilities, insurance and misc. If those salaries/expenses total 1.6 million that would mean there's an extra 1.6 million. That would translate into each of the 16 classes bringing in 100k more than is necessary which means each family paid a little more than 4k of tuition than was actually needed and that the real cost per kid is around 9k.

out-of-towner

Sun, Mar 20 2016, 11:45 pm

amother wrote:

If you are so sure about these numbers, then why not just open your own school and charge what you want?

amother

Plum

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 12:28 am

amother wrote:

How much do you think the rebbe makes?

How much do you think the teacher makes?

Whatever the salary is, add 20% to civet FICA, etc.

There is a lot of misc in running a school.

I don't disagree that you are paying someone else's bill, but I am curious what you think the salaries are.

seeker

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 12:45 am

You're not counting enough salaries in there. All the younger grades are going to have at least one teacher's assistant per class. Until what grade depends on the school - minimum is 1st grade but many schools will have at least one assistant rotating between classes through 3rd or 4th. Probably each making about half as much as the teachers, proportionate to the time they work. Do they have a librarian, computer teacher, science lab teacher, anything? Add another salary apiece.
Is all the busing provided by the school district? If not, are parents paying separately for transportation or is that part of the tuition bill?
What about food? You didn't even mention food. I can't imagine every single kid is on free or reduced lunch (surely not in a school where they are billed 13k per child just for tuition.) Does everyone bring lunch from home? If not then add on I have no idea how much but quite a lot in food.
Let's assume also that each class is going on at least 2 trips per year. Yes they are going to send home a note asking for money to cover the trips but there are probably additional costs involved in that too.
Reams and reams and reams of paper and colored paper and tape and staples and you have no idea how many supplies go into a school.
The stuff that needs to happen when the air conditioning or heating or plumbing or copy machine or security system breaks down and they need to open the school again the next day.
I mean, I don't even know anything about school administration and numbers and costs are definitely not my thing but I'm not having a hard time at all figuring out where your extra 1.6 million could get to.

But then again, we have traveled down this road before and I'm not all that interested in replaying the last three threads we had on this topic. frankly I'm only here because I'm waiting for my laundry to come out of the machine and I'm too tired to bother doing anything else.

And I also echo what watergirl said - if you can actually afford your tuition then instead of wasting your energy begrudging it you should be thanking every force in the universe that had to conspire in order for you to be one of the small minority that can meet this obligation at all.

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 7:53 am

saw50st8 wrote:

OP, if your teachers are licensed and the school has a good education and standards, $13k is very likely a real number. There are a lot of expenses that go into running a school.

But I hear your frustration. We send our kids to a school that fund-raises for scholarships separately from tuition.

ITA. Lunch and transportation are not included in tuition here, and 13k would be considered a "reduced" tuition at most schools in the area, similar to what we would pay at the schools which do not include scholarship fundraising in the full tuition.

amother

Burlywood

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 10:56 am

Local schools (for me) don't offer bussing. Or lunches (except maybe for special days. One school has a hot lunch service but it is an extra, expensive fee).
So 13,000 is a lot when you have to tack on those (making lunch, getting to school) plus all the fees. Trips, books, building funds, administrative stuff, the dinner....

To me, if I am scraping to get the full fee together, I hope everyone else is vs getting a scholarship. We all need to do our part. It is frustrating when I won't be getting a slightly bigger apartment because of tuition. When a family on scholarship (you know they are-say they told you) is eating fancier foods, going on trips and vacations, wears this season matching clothing. We live without and I have to deal with kids who are upset, jealous, bored... (Yes, we figure it all out and do cheap stuff and are working on middos but when they get back from vacation and didn't do sleep away camp, a family trip somewhere cool, or get the latest toy....)
It is frustrating. Saying we should be happy with the fact we can get the pennies together just adds salt to our wounds. Maybe this other family should live within their means to do it too!

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:03 pm

As a former administrator of a yeshiva, I can verify that there are many costs involved you wouldn't think of. There's insurance for on site injuries, workers compensation and disability. There's office supplies, textbooks, prizes for competitions, trips ($3 to help cover the cost is nothing. It can cost over $25 per student). Salaries of secretary, security, administrators, principals, assistant principals, teachers, janitorial staff, kitchen staff...even a govt liaison to make sure all paperwork is in order. That's just what I can recall at the moment.

I never realized how much it costs till I worked in administration myself.

amother

cornflower

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

When a family on scholarship (you know they are-say they told you) is eating fancier foods, going on trips and vacations, wears this season matching clothing. We live without and I have to deal with kids who are upset, jealous, bored... (Yes, we figure it all out and do cheap stuff and are working on middos but when they get back from vacation and didn't do sleep away camp, a family trip somewhere cool, or get the latest toy....)
It is frustrating. Saying we should be happy with the fact we can get the pennies together just adds salt to our wounds. Maybe this other family should live within their means to do it too!

No different than when I'm standing in the grocery with my coupons having looked at my list a few times and price checked everything to make sure that I'm using my money as wisely as possible, and I see the person in front of me load up on expensive stuff and then pay with food stamps. The gap between the haves and the have-nots seems to be a bit skewed when a family can live off of tzedaka and the government quite a bit nicer than a family living through their own sweat and toil...

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:10 pm

amother wrote:

Not always is everything as it appears. How about the family where the father lost his job. Should they give up their new car lease? Bus transportation for two schools and public transport for the mothers commute to work was more expensive.

Pesach is quite expensive. Grandparents used mileage for tickets for them to come for pesach. Should they not accept the offer because of their finances?

However, those that truly "cheat" the system should pay more.

imorethanamother

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:16 pm

The system is unsustainable and we all agree that tuition is impossible. However, I never thought to be angry at a parent that receives a scholarship. Do you know how much the financial department looks at all your finances? It's humiliating. Don't wish it on anyone. But if you're truly curious, try it yourself.

Also if you really want to know costs per kid, your local public school usually has to report annual per kid expenses. My local one is about $24,000. And that's only until 2:00pm. Makes mine almost look like a bargain.

saw50st8

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:29 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

There are many people who are on tuition assistance to don't view it as charity. So they have no qualms about having cleaning help and takeout and extras because they view scholarships as discounts or "good deals." Unfortunately, this attitude is very common. I think it's the height of chutzpah and can drive other people's costs up.

imorethanamother

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 4:35 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Disagree. And I think this adage brings home the joke that "Jews only agree on one thing - how the other Jew should spend his money."

Cleaning help a few times a month? Eating out? I pay full tuition for my five kids and let me tell you - those two things don't add up to the thousands and thousands of dollars needed.

What I am in favor of is telling a Rebbe that he is allowed free (or reduced) tuition for his kids - but the max is 3. After that he has to pay full tuition.