Saw child rip book in shul WWYD?

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 2:16 am

My shul has a lot of young families and not enough space. They try to accommodate mothers and children as much as possible, but it's not always so simple.

For Parshas Zachor, besides for the regular leining during davening, the shul scheduled Zachor readings for various times throughout the day. There was another one immediately following davening that a lot of women attended. I brought my children with me to shul, handed over the younger ones to DH, and took the older ones into shul with me to hear Zachor.

The shul has a tiny women's section since most women are busy with young children who shouldn't be in shul and there isn't even enough room for the men. The mechitza is moveable, so for occasions such as this they can expand the women's section. So that's how I ended up standing by a table in the men's section. Another woman brought her young children in with her and sat them down at the table. She saw some books (picture books about the 39 melachos) on the table and tried to distract the kids with them. While she had her back turned to deal with one child, another one ripped a page out of the book. I only noticed when it was too late to stop him, and I couldn't say anything to the mother in the middle of leining. I kept an eye on the boy the rest of the time, and I think I even stopped him from ripping another page. Another one of the kids was making too much noise, so the mother ended up taking them all out before leining was finished.

So what, if anything, should I do? Should I leave it alone? Should I let the mother know what her child did so she can replace the book? I don't even know whose book it is. For all I know that was her husband's seat and it was their own books they were playing with.

Thoughts?

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 2:30 am

No, I don't blame the mother at all. I heard Zachor perfectly well. She took her children out when they were being noisy and she didn't see her son rip the page so she couldn't do anything about it.

The reason I'm asking here is because my natural instinct is to do nothing, but I want to know if anyone else thinks I'm obligated to say something to the mother. I know her, but not well, so it would be awkward for me. I'd rather not bring it up if I don't have to, but I would push myself to do so if the majority of imamothers (or at least those who respond to this thread) think I should. I also kind of feel bad for the owner of the book (whomever that is) who has an unpleasant surprise waiting for him.

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 5:13 am

I think there is a serious halachic shaila here whether you are obligated to tell the mother. I think even if you aren't obligated, morally you should.

Yes, that is expected behavior for a two-year-old, but that's also why my toddlers don't read books unsupervised unless they're board books. Toddlers need constant supervision, period. Whoever left the book there probably didn't expect there to be toddlers running around unsupervised in the men's section- I doubt halachically you can tell the owner of the book, but at least give the mother a chance to make restitution.

justforfun87

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 6:41 am

I think you should move on and not say anything. I doubt there is any basis in halacha for me saying that but it is just how I feel. If I witness a car accident I would report it but I don't run to the owner if I see a tap while someone is parking. Approaching her at this point will come off as just being nosy. How is she supposed to find the owner of the book? She left realizing her kids were being disruptive. I say skip the embaressment.

HonesttoGod

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 11:47 am

If someone came over to me and told me "I just wanted you to know that in shul on Shabbos when you were busy with your other kid your son ripped the book that was on the table. I just thought you would want to know so you can replace it".
I would literally punch her self-righteous little face smack in the nose.

Mind your own business. It may be her book, it may be she DID notice and told her husband to go and bring the book home after shabbs to fix the tear or she bought a new one. Or she didn't notice and she doesn't care and whether that is right or wrong you should mind your own business and watch your own kids.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 12:10 pm

No brainer- don't say anything. Shuls are full of kids and small accidents happen all the time. I'm sure if the book did belong to the shul and they knew about what happened, they most certainly would not sent her a bill. Kinda like when someone mistakenly knocks something off the shelf in the supermarket. The manager never comes over and says, hey lady, when you get to the register, make sure you tell the cashier to add on $2.39 to include the jar of pickles you cracked.

MamaBear

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:04 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

I think your response is strange - to the point where I wonder if you're the OP. A serious halachic shaila??? Oh come on. It was a toddler who ripped the book accidentally. Do you keep your non board books under lock and key until all household members are above age 4?

OP, it's a shame it happened. It's a shame that we as mothers have to juggle our children every time we need to be in shul.

amother

Brunette

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:14 pm

MamaBear wrote:

This is water_bear88- no, I'm not the OP. And yes, I keep an eye on my kids when we're in public. As I see it, a toddler is mu'ad lenezikin and should have been supervised. I'm certainly not an expert, which is why I said it's a shaila.

I see I'm in the minority here. This explains why so many of the people I've lent books to never returned them or returned them in terrible condition, spines bent back, pages dogeared. It seems many people were never taught respect for books when they were children.

greenfire

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:19 pm

amother wrote:

water_bear88 or should I call you brunette ... I really feel what you are saying - too often people are lackadaisical about other people's belongings [or sometimes their own] that it gets frustrating to watch

my own nephew rips & breaks everything - but my niece just thinks everything is disposable & is okay with him doing whatever he wants ... I stopped buying him things or keep the toys I buy with me for when I want to play with him otherwise he would ruin everything ... he needs learning tools and more consistency in how he is taught to handle things

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:40 pm

greenfire wrote:

Thank you for the validation! I'm not claiming to be anything near a perfect parent- I'm just bothered by the attitude of "kids will be kids, everything is replaceable". To the extent that yes, I certainly wouldn't punish a toddler for doing that, I do agree with it. But when are they going to learn respect for others' and their own belongings if they're never taught? I'm happy for your nephew that he has you as an aunt!

water_bear88

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 3:41 pm

greenfire wrote:

amother

Seagreen

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 11:55 pm

OP here.

amother wrote:

Actually, there have been some instances lately of shul property being damaged and the shul is cracking down on it. There have been stern warnings given to parents to make sure they take responsibility for their children. But this was not a case of children running wild. This all happened in a matter of seconds while the mother was distracted.

greenfire wrote:

if you didn't say anything then - there is nothing left to say now ... if you did what you could to help & 'think' [whatever that means] you stopped him from ripping another page that's where it ended

It means that I saw him beginning to either turn or tear another page and I put my hand out to stop him. However, I couldn't read his mind so I don't know what his intentions were.

As for people who think I should mind my own business, please reread this post of mine:

amother wrote:

Thank you water_bear88 for articulating why I was concerned about someone else's belongings.

Also everyone please keep in mind that this all happened so quickly that I didn't have time to consider anything or react at the time. I mean, how long does reading Zachor take anyway? And they left in the middle. So I'm wondering in retrospect what my obligation is, if any.

Thank you.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 12:33 am

I would tell her in a nice polite way because that is what I would want someone to do if my kid destroyed something.

And it is a shailah. A preteen (with some family issues apparently) purposely ruined something of DH. His Mom saw and ignored it.(super expensive but needed then, think like grabbing DH's Tallis at shul and pouring dark soda on it purposely. Not like DH brought the Tallis to the park and a kid got dirt on it... It wasn't a Tallis but it's a good example).
We asked a shailah. In the end, since we were able to salvage it we didn't force the issue. It isn't as great as before but decent enough...But it was a huge shaila our Rav had to consult about...

I would want to know to rectify it. Obviously how it is brought to my attention matters. What if it was a Chumash ripped and not a kids book?