Costumes & Appropriateness

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

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fmt4

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:01 pm

Omg knees??? Like real live knees??? Covered in leggings? So like the black outline of knees???? How dare she subject holy you and your holy husband to the black outline of her knees???
Puke

This is what is wrong with chinuch today. People having panic attacks over leggings covered knees.
Grow up.

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

I'd like to correct that to read "at the woman's perceived lack of sensitivity.

She actually made it quite clear that the woman knew what is considered appropriate in such circles and therefore going to place where she knows there will be a lot of Bachurim with her knees uncovered is considered as a lack of sensitivity (not perceived lack of sensitivity).

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:14 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Omg knees??? Like real live knees??? Covered in leggings? So like the black outline of knees???? How dare she subject holy you and your holy husband to the black outline of her knees???
Puke

This is what is wrong with chinuch today. People having panic attacks over leggings covered knees.
Grow up.

Oh please

She is upset because there are many Bachurim over, she didn't go to the Rav and Rebbetzin when they were home by themselves.

fmt4

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:17 pm

I'm sure those poor bachurim spent the rest of the day fantAsizing about her black leggings covered knees. Soooo hot.

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:37 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I'm sure those poor bachurim spent the rest of the day fantAsizing about her black leggings covered knees. Soooo hot.

Mocking Halacha. Classy Applause

amother

Periwinkle

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 7:40 pm

Well, thanks e/o for your comments, both pro and sarcastic.

I am not angry, more sad that if you know you're going to a Rosh Yeshiva's house, you don't care to be appropriate.

But, Wheat, I hear where you are coming from and I really think it depends. E.g. if your standards are different than your Chareidi relatives, but you are basically tzanuah, I would expect the relatives to feel respected if you dropped in. The cousin with hat story would disturb me too, because I think if someone made an effort to be tzanua that was respectful, and the hosts should not be upset if the guests didn't get all the nuances of their standards.

I guess I should say I feel that my guest's attire was not respectful.

And if a boy showed up at my house in a mermaid costume you can bet we would show him the door. The kid has to realize that's provocative and extremely disrespectful. (I am also wondering what one of the "frum" was thinking with some of the Purim photos they posted.)

sourstix

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 8:33 pm

I am actually understanding op. the woman who came should have known better. her dh is a learning type of guy and he respects his rosh yeshiva. so he must be yeshivish. yeshivish people know this stuff.

making fun of halach is one I cant fathom. why are posters making light of this? yes showing knees is against halacha. and she didnt tell her anything. its sad that posters are mocking halacha. I am saddened to have read such a thing here.

I guess some people here have no problem mocking halacha. this website sure needs some fixing.

sourstix

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 8:36 pm

I think this conversation should go into the "interesting discussion" forum. that way I will avoid reading stuff like this.

BasMelech120

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:12 pm

I am a bit shocked both at some of OP's comments and at some of the replies.

First of all, the Halacha of covering knees - or any Halacha for that matter - should not be mocked or minimized in any way. The sick liberalism that is spreading throughout the world must not seep into the Jewish life in Halacha. On the other hand, I would expect a lot more sensitivity and love from the wife of a Rosh Yeshiva. If nothing else, this woman needs chizuk and love to prove to her that being more tznius is 'worth it', by modeling acceptance. Rejecting her - even just privately on this thread - is NOT what I would expect from a RY's wife.

One of the things that stood with me most was also the discussion about the boys in the 'inappropriate' costumes. I am not stating my opinion on what I thought about those exact costumes, but would we not expect 'Rebbe's' or 'Rosh Yeshiva's' to know that this might just be a cry for help??????? The boy was dressed in nothing but a diaper!!! Would you not think to look into the situation at home; is the boy being abused or s-xually exploited??? Or, in the case of the boy mermaid, is the cry for help not loud enough??? All liberalism aside, this is against the regular pattern of male behavior - why would a Rebbe throw the child out and not sit him down, talk to him, listen to the cries behind the busty costume??? It shocks and appalls me to see that this is the response of the 'Mechanchim' nowadays. Do our children even stand a chance????

amother

Jetblack

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:16 pm

amother wrote:

My experience is that when a person is too makpid on his own kavod (or your husband's, in this case), he probably doesn't deserve that much.

Yes she should have known better. So? Why is this about you?

When you run after kavod, it runs away from you.

Really, let it go.

amother

Teal

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:21 pm

amother wrote:

This deserves more than a like!

Here is a great big Thumbs Up

amother

Wheat

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:26 pm

OP- You sound like you're trying to be understanding, and you're not coming across as an especially "judgy" or hostile person, but I still think that no matter what background she came from, she really may not have realized that it would come across as offensive.
I, too, came from that same chareidi background of many of the relatives that I keep mentioning. But I have lived out of that society for so many years that it's simply not part of something I notice every day. And I (like my cousin with the hat) may feel excessively covered when I go there, but relatives may still believe that I did not care enough to respect their level. So if a woman is literally living in a Bnei Brak yeshivish community and then coming straight from there to your house, then I get where you're coming from- it would be hard not to notice that this does not conform to the expected standard.
But I assume that she doesn't live there now (based on the way she's dressing). She is presumably now socializing with a different crowd where this is acceptable, and this was possibly not at the forefront of her consciousness. I promise that when I go to relatives' house dressed a certain way, I'm trying to accommodate, not offend. But very often I won't even realize what it is that is offending them because a) this issue is not so paramount to me as other things in life, and b) frankly, I don't find it very important in the big scheme of things that are happening in the world right now. So it wouldn't occur to me that someone would actually be moved and offended by what I was wearing.
My point of saying this is not to say that this isn't important; it clearly is to you and to many other people and there's extensive halacha dedicated to it. But what I mean to say is that just because she's doing it, doesn't mean that she's trying to offend you or doesn't care about you or respecting you. She clearly doesn't care about covering her knees as much as you do. But I don't think you should perceive that as a reflection of her respect for you.
One other thing, do you know that she planned to come to your house, or that they came straight from their home to yours? Did they come for the meal, or was yours one of many stops on their purim rounds? This may also affect how someone is dressed. If tznuah was at the forefront of her consciousness and she was coming straight to your house specifically to have the seuda and then going home, then I would expect that she might dress different from how she would if you were one of many stops of the day.

amother

Wheat

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:29 pm

BasMelech120 wrote:

Would do this under my sn but have already posted anon in this thread. I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you can't be serious. Someone dressed up as a mermaid so it's a cry for help. That he secretly wants to come out as Ariel? And live in the sea? Uh. okay.

Coffee Addict

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:42 pm

mtzadhasheini wrote:

DKLZ. Let all turn more inwards.

Did I dress appropriately for the occasion? Was I careful to greet everyone with seva panim yaffot? Was I grateful that people were coming to me? Did I judge the other party favorably, even though they may appear to be breaching halacha? was I careful to control my anger?

Liking this post is not enough!

Coffee Addict

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

My dh is a Rebbi in a yeshiva in EY. This year took the cake, one boy came dressed as a baby with a diaper no shirt and a pacifer and one boy came as the "little mermaid" with bust and all. My dh threw them both out.

Horrible! I hope you're kidding.

Fox

Sat, Mar 26 2016, 9:59 pm

Has no one here ever just had a lapse of judgment that had no hidden meaning or ulterior motive?

Really?

Purim offers tons of opportunities for ideas that sound hilarious in theory to crash and burn in practice. It doesn't mean the person is troubled, rebellious, disrespectful, or anything else. It doesn't tell us anything about the person other than he/she is human and made an error.

As for talmidim who've used questionable judgment in costume selection, I'm assuming the Rebbe wasn't cruel about it -- just sent them back to change and rejoin the party. While girls might find that embarrassing, most guys wouldn't care or would find it even added to the hilarity.

OP, I would recommend you "forget" that the young woman made a poor choice, and perhaps urge your DH to remind the yungerleit next year that Purim doesn't cancel standards of tznius -- for men or women.

And maybe ask Hashem to make others as forgiving when you demonstrate a lapse of judgment yourself.

amother

Blue

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 2:54 am

1ofbillions wrote:

I hope you aren't being serious. Your dh threw two kids out of your house because he thought that their costumes were improper? That doesn't sound like the kind of chinuch that will accomplish good things.

I am not kidding. They are not kids. they are 19 years old, they are in Yeshiva here, they are not clueless. They knew it was wrong. One changed and came back , the other one didn't.

amother

Blue

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 2:58 am

It has nothing to do with Kavod. It's inappropriate to come dressed to a purim seuda with a siyum that way. sitting without a shirt in my living room. Anyone who thinks it's ok is welcome to have them over.

Ms.MaryMack(inblack)

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 3:13 am

amother wrote:

I am not kidding. They are not kids. they are 19 years old, they are in Yeshiva here, they are not clueless. They knew it was wrong. One changed and came back , the other one didn't.

I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!

To all those who were disgusted by this post, think of it like this: You are invited to a black tie event and you show up in a bikini, would you feel bad if the maitre d doesn't let you in because you aren't dressed appropriately for the party?

Last edited by Ms.MaryMack(inblack) on Sun, Mar 27 2016, 3:36 am; edited 1 time in total

causemommysaid

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 3:27 am

Ms.MaryMack(inblack) wrote:

I agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!

To all those who were disgusted by this post, think of it like this: You are invited to a black tie affair and you show up in a bikini, would you feel bad if the maitre d doesn't let you in because you aren't dressed appropriately for the party?

I am fairly liberal and I agree as well.

Coming to a rabbis house dressed in a diaper or a mermaid bra is disrespectful.

I could tell right away from the post that we were discussing older students and not little boys.

I see nothing wrong with sending them home to change.

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