Costumes & Appropriateness

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

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causemommysaid

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 6:30 am

oh, the girl in leggings wouldn't bother me in the least. I see it as "hey awesome, now when she sits no one needs a view under her skirt" which happens all the time in the frummest circles.

Raisin

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 7:46 am

I would never turn anyone away from my house or tell them off (that really depends on your relationship with them) but I don't think purim means you can wear a lesser standard in tznius or ridiculous inappropriate costumes.

Dandelion1

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 7:58 am

chavs wrote:

Wow, that's really awful! I honestly can't believe that a grown man would treat children that way just because he doesn't like their costume. Poor kids!
I'm really sorry, that must be hard for you!

This response is so odd to me. First of all, no one is talking about children here. Second of all, clearly this poster is in agreement with her dh.... Why would it be "hard for her?"

But mostly, I grew up MO, went to a coed yeshiva where we wore shorts and tee-shirts in our free time. And if anyone showed up that way to a teacher's house or to a school event we'd have been sent home in a flash.

It's so weird to me that people here who are supposedly MORE right wing than I ever was show such disgust for common decency.

amother

Denim

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 8:02 am

aleph wrote:

that's why there is a huge difference between the girl in leggings and the boy in a diaper.

the first is normal dress and the second is highly inappropriate.

DrMom

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 8:10 am

I think a young man who who shows up with no shirt and a diaper knows he is being provocative. A woman who shows up in leggings and an above-the-knee skirt might no (depends on the community, of course).

I can see a rosh yeshiva tossing out the former. Or at least giving him a shirt to borrow.

abound

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 8:11 am

I totally agree that people should come dressed appropriately. While most Yeshiva Bochurim do dress in appropriate costumes, every few years one comes along that makes me want to erase the image, Mermaid and no shirt are definitely not appropriate costumes. About the way your husbands students wives dress. There are different types of yeshiva's. If a few of the women are dressing that way, then they would not think it is a problem to come that way to your home. I think you are just not realizing the clientele in your husband's Yeshiva.

marina

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 11:21 am

The reason that people are mocking religion in this thread is because OP is coming across as judgmental. She comes across as prioritizing details of tznius over the details of ben adam lechaveiro. And many of us are tired of religion being used as a reason to put others down.

I guess if the guest came in a tanktop and a mini skirt, we'd be more understanding, but knees? some of us wear clothing above the knee or pants. We'd hate to think we'd be unwelcome in your home.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 12:05 pm

marina wrote:

Honestly, I did not find her post judgmental at all, she wasn't criticizing her for dressing like that but felt she showed a lack of respect by coming to a Rosh Yeshiva's house while dressed like that.
I think people are just getting defensive because they don't want to hear anything about not covering one's knees being a lack of Tznius.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 4:01 pm

BTW (OP in case you weren't following the colors) just wanted to say that anyone who knows my DH will tell you that he is the last one to ask for kovod, it's not about that at all. (Do I stand up for his kovod? Maybe a tiny bit. But certainly not for mine)

It's about being respectful when you go to anyone's house, in whatever way you perceive respect. Which I suppose can differ based on where you're coming from. But whatever.

And please remember I said I was very warm & welcoming. Now I hope the young lady is on here, maybe she will come and tell everyone I was very nice.

Ema of 5

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 5:22 pm

amother wrote:

Someone before mentioned maybe she didn't know better, but you said she did. Maybe this is the way she always dresses, and she had no intention of going into your house, so she didn't think she needed to change her way of dress. Just because she came into your house dressed in a way that you feel is inappropriate doesn't mean that she was being insensitive.

amother

Pearl

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 9:18 pm

I think you are overreacting. This woman certainly did not want to appear insensitive.

This year, for the first time in my adult life, I decided to dress up for Purim. So I ditched my beige tights for pink tights and my black skirt for a pink skirt. You can say I knew better. I thought it was cool but after all the weird looks and comments I got, I've decided not to dress up like that anymore. You would also probably call me insensitive, even if my knees were covered. I'm sorry. I just wanted to have fun and I realize I looked ridiculous in my community.

Ema of 5

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 9:23 pm

amother wrote:

I can guarantee you that you looked no more ridiculous than the grown man dressed as a banana or the man in the yellow hat, or whatever else the grown man was dressed as.

naturalmom5

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 10:09 pm

amother wrote:

If you can't look ridiculous on Purim then what exactly is the point of Purim in the first place

Only men can have fun and women get the shaft once again

sleepybeauty

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 10:18 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

If you can't look ridiculous on Purim then what exactly is the point of Purim in the first place

I believe it has something to do with celebrating the fact that we were saved from being wiped out 😉

WhatFor

Sun, Mar 27 2016, 11:58 pm

amother wrote:

Well you know what they say, "Once you've ruined your reputation, you can live quite freely." So now you can go nuts!

blossoming

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 4:52 am

sourstix wrote:

I am actually understanding op. the woman who came should have known better. her dh is a learning type of guy and he respects his rosh yeshiva. so he must be yeshivish. yeshivish people know this stuff.

making fun of halach is one I cant fathom. why are posters making light of this? yes showing knees is against halacha. and she didnt tell her anything. its sad that posters are mocking halacha. I am saddened to have read such a thing here.

I guess some people here have no problem mocking halacha. this website sure needs some fixing.

There was once a poster who extrmely mocked halacha Deorisa (zera levatala) and I had to take a break from this site for a few months. Every time I see her user name I shudder.

amother

Red

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 4:56 am

marina wrote:

I guess if the guest came in a tanktop and a mini skirt, we'd be more understanding, but knees? some of us wear clothing above the knee or pants. We'd hate to think we'd be unwelcome in your home.

And I'd hate to think you'd consider yourself welcome and the clothing you wear okay in that home.

Fox

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 11:38 am

marina wrote:

So let me get this straight: mocking religious beliefs is acceptable when one finds the adherent to be obnoxious or unsympathetic in some way?

Sorry. I don't buy that.

As it happens, I didn't find the OP super-sympathetic. She seemed to have taken the incident more personally than I thought warranted, at least absent any other information.

However, the OP specifically said that she didn't say anything to the young woman in question or treat her differently from other guests, and she even reiterated this in a follow-up post.

So now we have an even broader rule? Mocking religious beliefs is acceptable when one simply doesn't believe the adherent's denial of misconduct?

I have no trouble with calling out an OP who deserves it for whatever reason. In fact, I wasn't all that supportive of this OP's seeming disgust with the breach in tznius standards. I saw it more as an issue of chinuch than a personal affront.

But disagreeing with how the OP framed the situation or even responded is a far, far cry from making fun of the halachos observed by various communities. Nor is anyone's personal opinion of those halachos of any relevance.

If you happen to belong to a community or derech in which uncovered knees are not problematic, then good for you! Feel free to respond to the OP's dilemma or emotions, but no one asked for a description of how your community holds and why you find it preferable. Honestly, we get it: you like your way better. Okey-dokey!

Frowny-faces and vomiting emoticons when presented with a different halachic standard are simply indefensible.

marina wrote:

I guess if the guest came in a tanktop and a mini skirt, we'd be more understanding, but knees? some of us wear clothing above the knee or pants. We'd hate to think we'd be unwelcome in your home.

Now the plot really thickens. It's not the OP's reaction to the situation that you disagree with -- it's simply that you don't feel the catalyst was significant enough.

So where's the tipping point? What about a halter top? Or a full-length dress cut in front to the navel? What's the magical point at which the OP's reaction is warranted?

Oh, wait! Now I get it! The magical tipping point is where you draw the line in the sand. If she draws the line more stringently, she's by definition smug and self-righteous (since we obviously can't believe her own account of her behavior). But if she draws the line to the left of your own line, then her disgust is well-founded.

Ladies, stop being cowards. Have the courage of your convictions. If you don't cover your knees; wear pants; paint your faces blue . . . we assume you do so because that is what your derech/community requires and what your rav advises. Own it. You don't need to snipe away at other people. Snarky remarks and snotty emoticons regarding other people's halachic standards or minhagim doesn't make you look reasonable or tolerant; it makes you look defensive and desperate.

The best way to ensure others respect you is to respect yourself first.

saw50st8

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

OP, your perception of what is appropriate may not align with her perception. Or it may have just made her uncomfortable to wear clothing that you would deem appropriate.

I'm way more modern than you are and I wear sandals 99.999999% of the time from April - October. I don't put on socks or stockings for anyone even though other people think my bare legs are totally not tzanua. It's about my own personal comfort rather than your perception of what Halacha I should be following.

Unless you are willing to change to my dress code when you come to my house, please don't enforce your dress code on me in your home.

amother

Red

Mon, Mar 28 2016, 12:12 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Omg knees??? Like real live knees??? Covered in leggings? So like the black outline of knees???? How dare she subject holy you and your holy husband to the black outline of her knees???
Puke

This is what is wrong with chinuch today. People having panic attacks over leggings covered knees.
Grow up.

hmmmm.... something tells me there's somebody else here who may need to grow up.
And respecting a higher standard of modesty is a great way to start.

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