Kitchen layout: opinions please

amother

White

Tue, Mar 29 2016, 9:11 pm

We may iy'h move to a house with a small L-shaped kitchen, which we would need to turn into a u-shaped one. There is now a small piece of counter, stove, corner counter, sink and a 24" or so counter with dishwasher underneath. I would want to add a stove with double oven, a second sink and some counter space. Oh, and a dishwasher under counter, since I recently realized my relatively small amounts of milchig and parve dishes are always accumulating and waiting for cleaning lady, Shabbos or Moshiach, whoever comes first.

Does the following layout make sense to you (going clockwise on an upside down U):

First leg: 15/18" counter, stove, corner counter
These I'm thinking to keep parve, for all baking, salads, veggie dishes.

Base of u: continuing the corner counter, sink( good for washing vegetables right by the parve counter); approx.27" counter (with fleshing dishwasher underneath).
This sink and counter would be fleshing. I currently use one 24" section and it's enough.
Then I want to put stove #2 (accessible from fleshing counter) with double fleshing and milchig oven, then single corner cabinet.

which would get us to the second leg of the U, with some milchig counter space (double dishwasher underneath) and a sink.

The milchig area would border on the eat-in area of the kitchen. We mostly use our kitchen table for milchig breakfasts now, so for the hectic time it's most convenient to have dairy section by the breakfast area.

It makes sense to me except the fact that fleshing and milchig would share the stove.
I now have a milchig stove (usually using one or two burners only). I never have to clean the "spare" burners but the frequently used ones may get quite dirty from Mac-n-cheese occasionally falling out of the pot as I scoop them out.

On My current fleshing stive I may use one or more burners like one for frying supper schnitzel or three making Shabbos dishes, while parve pots are cooking on the other stove so they don't get splattered by sizzling meat.

Would it be inconvenient to have a shared fleshig/milchig stove? I know I know, our grandmothers didn't have 3 stoves, and I myself lived for many years with one stove, one sink and almost no counters. But it was not convenient, esp. Cooking for a big family ka'h. To me convenience matters here because it translates into efficiency, both in prep, serving and cleaning. Which is a necessity because of limited resources, time being one of them.

So what do you think?

Ps going clockwise on an upside down U, I could make the left leg fleishig( oven parve); the base of u parve; and right leg milchig but it would give me too much fleishig counter space, not enough parve counter space, parve oven away from the parve counter. Fleishig oven away from the fleishig counter and by the milchig side.
If I switch the stoves around to keep fullsize parve oven close to parve counter then 1/2 size fleishig oven will be by fleishig side (good); but milchig 1/2 size oven will be On the opposite leg from milchig counter (which is probably not the end of the world but still).

Now again, what do you think about all this?

Mucho gracias!

tweety1

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 3:41 am

Best advice from kitchen places.

Raisin

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:59 am

my sister has a 2 burner electric stove for milchig. takes up a lot less space.

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:58 am

Raisin wrote:

my sister has a 2 burner electric stove for milchig. takes up a lot less space.

I want all three prep areas to be adjacent to stoves, but a shared 2 burner one doesn't offer the convenience of clean burners always available for another type of food. plus I would want to add a double oven which comes with a full range on top.

This idea would be good if I could share a full stove between fleshig and parve. But the current layout doesn't let.

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:00 am

tweety1 wrote:

Best advice from kitchen places.

Dunno, the installation would not differ, it's the assigned use that I'm seeking help with.

goforit

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:08 am

amother wrote:

I want all three prep areas to be adjacent to stoves, but a shared 2 burner one doesn't offer the convenience of clean burners always available for another type of food. plus I would want to add a double oven which comes with a full range on top.

This idea would be good if I could share. Top?a full stove between fleshig and parve. But the current layout doesn't let.

Sorry I didn't the't really follow your question. Do you mind sharing a link to a double oven with range on top?

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:13 am

I also just remembered that the sink there is a double undermount one.
Would you def replace it with a large single sink so you can wash large pots?

OOTBubby

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:36 am

amother wrote:

I also just remembered that the sink there is a double undermount one.
Would you def replace it with a large single sink so you can wash large pots?

It depends how big it is -- are both halves equal or is one larger than the other? I've always had a large, deep double sink with one side larger than the other big enough for even 20 qt. pots.

A single sink can be hard to work with depending on how you use it. On Friday night, I like to fill one half of the sink with hot water (before Shabbos obviously), and use that to wash dishes, rinsing into the empty half.

One DIL has one huge single sink and hasn't found a good way to handle the Friday night dishes.

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 10:28 am

OOTBubby wrote:

It's probably a 24" wide, split unevenly.

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 2:24 pm

So guys do you think it's inconvenient to have a shared milchig-fleishig stove and separate parve one, vs. separate fleishig?

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 2:26 pm

goforit wrote:

Sorry I didn't the't really follow your question. Do you mind sharing a link to a double oven with range on top?

This

http://m.ikea.com/us/en/catalo.....8561/

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:25 pm

So guys do you think it's inconvenient to have a shared milchig-fleishig stove and separate parve one, vs. separate fleishig?

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:37 pm

amother wrote:

This

http://m.ikea.com/us/en/catalo.....8561/

This looks very interesting to me as we're in middle of designing a kitchen. Can you tell me more about the advantages and disadvantages of such an oven?

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:50 pm

amother wrote:

This looks very interesting to me as we're in middle of designing a kitchen. Can you tell me more about the advantages and disadvantages of such an oven?

Well, I don't own one yet. This is something I would like to put in the prospective house.

I would use the smaller oven for milchigs because tops I make pizza or baked ziti and don't need a full-size oven. I don't want a toaster oven because my kids will want to eat grilled cheese every day, and it takes up counter space.

The larger oven you can use for fleishig or parve, depending on which one you cook more. It would be a sufficient fleishig oven for me.

I would prefer to have a full size parve oven for erev yomtov when you can bake 4 or 6 9x13 kugels or cakes at once.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:53 pm

amother wrote:

I don't need a milchig oven. I bake milchigs once a year before shavuos so I can use my pareve oven and then kasher it after. I need a small fleishig and a full pareve, so I was going to do a regular oven for pareve and an over-the-range micro-convection for fleishig.

I'm wondering though if this has more space than a full-sized oven so then I'd use both for pareve but enjoy having more space for when I bake challos and cake for Shabbas.

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 5:55 pm

I've just checked the compartment capacity, I guess I would want to see it in real life to check whether you can put in two racks for pizza in the smaller one. If not, then check if it's big enough for a large meat dish and maybe use smaller one for meat.

amother

Tan

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 6:05 pm

Ask a shaila about the double oven.
I know that there are some brands where the steam mixes together or goes into the other compartment.
Each brand has to be checked to find out:
A) if you can really use one for milchig and one for fleishig and
B) if you can cook milchig and fleishig at the same time.

Some brands can only be used for pareve/fleishig or pareve/milchig and some brands can be used for milchig/fleishig but not at the same time.

(Anon - my relative sells appliances)

amother

White

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 6:11 pm

amother wrote:

Yes,I'll ask if we end up getting the house, thanks for the reminder.

It's interesting though that there is "sabbath mode" in the description, whatever it means.

OOTBubby

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 6:13 pm

amother wrote:

Yes,I'll ask if we end up getting the house, thanks for the reminder.

It's interesting though that there is "sabbath mode" in the description, whatever it means.

You should be aware that some companies have their own, self-certified "sabbath mode" -- like a K on food. You should check the Star-K website for the list of those ovens with their certification; that way you know who is behind it to be sure it will function according to halacha.

tweety1

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 6:35 pm

amother wrote:

Dunno, the installation would not differ, it's the assigned use that I'm seeking help with.

My layout was done by where I bought my kitchen. Its part of their job to design a layout if needed