"the right way" | Imamother

yo'ma

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:32 am

We feel as orthodox jews that we practice judiasm the right way. I know each sect thinks they practice it the right way, but I'm not bringing that up at all!! I also know that the Karaites think there's is the right way. Not asking about them either. I'm asking about reform and conservative. Do they think they are practicing judiasm the right way? And if so, how could they when it's only less than 200 years old and a spinoff of orthodox. Not that I'm interested in reform or conservative, but I'm interested in learning their mindset in reference to judiasm. Would anyone know?

etky

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:47 am

I have no idea what the official position is, but I can imagine that many who subscribe to Reform Judasim at least might postulate that there 'is no right way' - only what is right for you....

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:54 am

There is a broad cross-section. There are a lot of people who lead compartmentalized lives and Judaism has its time and place. Then there are people - I would guess more Conservative than Reform - who do bring their Judaism into their day to day lives, whether their kids go to day schools, they keep kosher, Shabbos, fairly fully or to some degree.

Which doesn't answer your question: I guess it boils down to, is one's primary identity Jew? And if so, how much thinking does one do about how that obligates them to act to others and to G-d a certain way?

Which begs the question: how consistent are WE in our lives....

cookiecutter

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:55 am

I think they would argue that Judaism has always been what they are practicing now. In a milieu where many Jewish communities were isolated and surrounded by active, dangerous anti Semitism, and all religions were strict and ritualistic, and cholent was the national dish of their host countries, it made sense to practice Judaism in a particular way. Even that way was an adaption from earlier Judaism in a lot of ways - davening was more important than korbanos, ritual purity was generally forgotten, lending at interest, selling chometz, eiruv, were new inventions that arose as lifestyles changed. Orthodox Judaism chose some time in the 17th century to freeze and stop adapting. Conservative and Reform Judaism did not choose to freeze.

chani8

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 8:55 am

My guess is that Reform and Conservatives are not so concerned with doing things 'the right way' but rather with doing things the way that makes sense to them or feels comfortable or meshes with their less rigid understanding of halacha.

cookiecutter

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:03 am

chani8 wrote:

I like this point. It is not just about Reform or Conservative. Even as Orthodox Jews we often favor "the right way" as it is written and easily expressed over other values that are harder to pinpoint. Like helping an elderly man get up - you can always point to negiah as an issur but its harder to find a halacha that you are REQUIRED to help so one might choose not to.

The Happy Wife

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 9:43 am

I think conservative Jews believe that what they are doing is valid and proper. I believe (feel free I correct if I am wrong) that "lo bashamayim hi," that Torah law is meant to be interpreted by is and that we have the power to make changes.

I think some followers of the reform movement believe that the laws were just made up my man and we don't really have to follow them. Some might just want to do what is comfortable for them. I've heard many times that "G-d understands" which really does make me feel like they know what they are doing is not the right way, but they feel like G-d is forgiving enough for them to do what they want anyway.

But even if someone does something they know isn't right and they continue doing it, they will eventually convince themselves that it is right or at least ok. This includes Orthodox Jews.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 11:48 am

chani8 wrote:

This sounds fairly accurate to me. I think it's a lot about how it makes people FEEL, and their feelings are what is most important to them. If you FEEL Jewish, then you don't need an Orthodox conversion, if you FEEL like kashrus is not needed anymore because we have safe food handling, etc.

Basically, any mitzvah that doesn't FEEL good, gets tossed out the window, and labeled "bad and oppressive." Tikkun Olam is no longer about transforming yourself, and more about saving the whales. Who wants to do the hard and painful work on looking at your own flaws, when it's more fun to rally around the whales?

imasoftov

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 1:30 pm

yo'ma wrote:

And a site restricted to Orthodox people is just the place to find out what Reform and Conservative people think ...

finallyamommy

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 1:31 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Can I quote you on this?

yo'ma

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 2:18 pm

imasoftov wrote:

And a site restricted to Orthodox people is just the place to find out what Reform and Conservative people think ...

I know, but I also know that other people have more contact with people who are reform or conservative. I don't.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 3:08 pm

yo'ma wrote:

I know, but I also know that other people have more contact with people who are reform or conservative. I don't.

I know one family that is very assimilated and compartmentalizes but is open.
I know someone else who's a little older and has a frame of reference but probably doesn't know what she doesn't know.
I don't know how many people make really informed decisions about their Jewish practice, especially as there is less and less of a solid frame of reference, of their own and of the leadership. I remember a good 15 years ago reading a Tradition article about a Reform rabbi who became a BT and had never heard of the concept of eruv.
But for all of these, you may hear from imamothers who know a lot of very involved, genuinely growing and seeking non-Orthodox Jews.

tichellady

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 4:14 pm

Conservative and reform are not spin offs from orthodoxy. Reform and orthodox were both formed in Germany in the 18/19th century. It's not accurate to say that Jews before that were orthodox, they either kept halakaha or didn't, or kept some or kept what they had to keep in order to fit in with the community. Conservative Judaism started later in the US.
I am sure there is a lot of variation among different reform and conservative Jews but I think some may respect Orthodox Jews for certain observances but will think they are wrong for the way they handle certain things: agunah cases, female clergy, etc. reform Jews may point to lentient opinions in the Gemara about all sorts of think and say that the orthodox have just chosen the stricter opinions, but there is room for a range of halakhic observance within Jewish law.

newmommy:)

Wed, Mar 30 2016, 4:51 pm

Don't have much to add except that my father was raised reform and him and his brother became right wing/yeshivish. My grandparents are very much still reform and my grandfather has said on numerous occasions that if it wasn't for the orthodox Jews -Judaism would cease to exist.

take from that what you'd like.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Mar 31 2016, 6:34 am

I wrote what I did based on very close friendships with sincere, committed Reform Jews. We've had long talks about halacha and observance. For them, it always came down to "their spiritual journey, and what felt right for their world view."

Seems to me like they're getting it backwards. We are supposed to conform to Torah, not the other way around.

PinkFridge

Thu, Mar 31 2016, 9:50 am

tichellady wrote:

I'm not so clear on your point.
Once labeling started, authentic Judaism needed a label too and that's what we call Orthodox, for better or worse. Conservative and Reform spun off from authentic Judaism.

And it's not just a matter of stringency, it's a matter of accepting Torah sheb'al peh and revelation at Sinai.

etky

Thu, Mar 31 2016, 10:09 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Not really. Orthodoxy, led by the Chatam Sofer, was a reaction to modernity and the Emancipation. It created an ideology out of sticking to tradition. In this way it also influenced and altered the tradition that it was shielding from change, making it more conservative (emphasis on the small "c "...) in nature. Ironically, both Reform and Orthodoxy were novelties and they derived from the same historical processes.

rydys

Thu, Mar 31 2016, 10:30 am

Initially, there were Torah observant Jews and non-Torah observant Jews. The reform movement was started by Jews who did not believe in Torah Min Hashamayim, but still wanted to preserve the Jewish "traditions". They felt that since Torah was "man made", it should be adapted to fit into current culture while retaining the traditions. Reform Judaism does not believe the Hashem gave us the Torah, nor does it require belief in Hashem at all.

The Conservative movement began much more recently by groups of reform Jews who did believe in Hashem and that he gave the Torah but still felt it should be modified to fit current society. They conform more to Torah law, but not in all areas and change things that they feel are old fashioned.

While the Conservative movement is still around in the US, it is not found as commonly in Europe or
Australia.

Ihatepotatoes

Thu, Mar 31 2016, 10:39 am

etky wrote:

I'm a little confused. can you give me an example of a change in traditional (orthodox) judaism that occurred that was not done before the reform movement that you can attribute to a resistance to change and therefore a new "ideology?" how did they become more conservative if they were basically living the way they always were?