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Is it ok for me to pay my son to help me?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 10:06 am
OP, the more I read various responses and think about this, the more convinced I am that paying your son for heavy-duty help is not just okay -- it's actually an excellent idea!

I don't know where this business of never paying kids to help around the house came from. I'm going to assume it's a misinterpretation of the idea that kids should have routine household chores that are not compensated.

It seems like we all pretty much agree that kids should definitely have responsibilities as members of the family and that paying them to breathe is a bad idea. But that's not the situation you've presented us with, and I think it's harmful to conflate two very different scenarios.

There are some specific issues connected with HS yeshiva bochrim that I believe add value to the option of paying your son:

* Yeshiva bochrim are often lousy time managers. Most yeshivas have very structured days, and those days are jam-packed. Boys home for bein hazmanim have very little practice or experience at using their time productively or entertaining themselves. The whole lounging around phenomenon with which many of us are so familiar is not laziness per se; it's inexperience at managing large chunks of time.

* Yeshiva bochrim have limited opportunity to do hard physical work. Hard physical labor has tremendous benefits for young men, and a daily game of "21" on the basketball court is not quite the same.

* Yeshiva bochrim don't have many opportunities to make the connection between hard work and earning money. There is a visceral link that needs to be established in kids, the earlier, the better. The feeling of being physically tired but having a few dollars in your pocket that you earned yourself is a wonderful feeling.

* Yeshiva bochrim have limited ways of developing self-esteem and confidence outside of learning. Everyone bemoans "entitlement" here on Imamother, but one of the best ways we can help our kids become independent is by starting out as we mean to go on. In other words, a kid who is capable of organizing and cleaning his family's basement for a fair wage will see himself as capable of doing the same for a neighbor. And a kid who sees himself as capable of doing such a job for a neighbor will feel more confident about applying for a summer job . . . and so on.

* Paying for the job allows (and requires) Mom to institute some quality control. This is good for moms and kids.

Again, let me reiterate that not every household task should be compensated. Nor should the rate be inflated (I currently pay $10-12 per hour, approximately what a HS babysitter would make). But if I'm going to hire special cleaning help, why wouldn't I want a competent child to have first dibs on the opportunity?

Or maybe, as a Chicagoan, I just consider patronage and nepotism a way of life! Smile

As the late Mayor Richard J. Daley said, when accused of giving city jobs to his friends, "What? I'm supposed to give jobs to my enemies?"
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mummiedearest




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 10:25 am
gp2.0 wrote:
Many people successfully use reward systems and allowances linked to chores. It's not a crazy concept. It works. Especially when it's given along with a lot of verbal loving affirmation.

And if something isn't working (in this case consequences) then it's not working. If you're turning something clockwise and it gets harder and harder to turn, you don't get out a wrench and keep turning it clockwise until it breaks. You turn it counter-clockwise.


I don't think it's a crazy concept. I do think it's a bad idea to pay a child a large amount of money to do something you already asked him to do because he refused to do it and sulked.
teens are not adults, and they do need some consequences in their lives. I would not hesitate to take away privileges from a teen who refuses to acknowledge responsibility.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 10:50 am
I I agree with mummydearest in concept, but right now the op is in a crisis. Discipline can come later, when things are calmer. Not now when it's 2 weeks to yom tov and things are flying.
Op, I'd suggest getting a cleaning service on a Sunday, or taking off a day from work if possible.
If you can't, go ahead and pay your kids. But take the advice of the other women, and pay by the job, with a time limit for each. For example, if he takes 45 minutes he will get more than if he takes an hour. (Might be motivated to work faster)
Also, talk to your dh, get his input on how he expects pessach to get done.
Is your mil a helpful person? If so, can she come a bit early and help out?
Finally, and most crucially only do exactly what must be done to be kosher lepessach, no spring cleaning now.

Ps, if you can, get some help for the depression.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 10:53 am
mummiedearest wrote:
I don't think it's a crazy concept. I do think it's a bad idea to pay a child a large amount of money to do something you already asked him to do because he refused to do it and sulked.
teens are not adults, and they do need some consequences in their lives. I would not hesitate to take away privileges from a teen who refuses to acknowledge responsibility.


I think OP should pay her son by task. Let her get the relief she needs.

When that's all done, I would have OP start charging her son for extras so that he learns you need to pay the piper. So, he wants a ride to his friend, $5 (cheaper than uber!). He wants a new book? Use the money he earned for that.

Teens are notoriously self centered. OP can get through to him, but should first worry about completing what she needs.
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esther11




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 10:57 am
I have a bunch of thoughts on the whole situation, but first and foremost is that u need to get ur husbands support. I have a few ideas but I think if he helps u it will make all the difference.

1) I think u should make a list of everything that must be done for pesach, then bring it to the table and empower them-tell all ur kids and husband that each person should pick the jobs they want, one big or 2 small jobs (or whatever amount u decide) to accomplish by Sunday afternoon. If everyone does it by 4pm, the family gets to go out for pizza or Chinese food or something for supper (that way they may push each other to do it, and u don't have to worry abt supper either!). rather than payment, I see this as: the family came together to help mommy, so the family gets a nice outing-and it's a fairly immediate gratification which is important for many kids.

2) U mentioned that u have only boys and the oldest is 15. How old are the others? There are plenty of jobs kids can do, here are some ideas:
Ages 13-15: vacuum car, grill hamburgers for supper so u can work, move the couches to check if there is chometz underneath, etc
9-12 empty toy boxes and check for food then refill, vacuum (I think this can be fun if presented right!), we always loved using colorful duct tape so if u do shelf liners they can tape down
6-8 check all pockets on coats for food and candy, carry around spray bottle and spray and wipe anything they'd like (not necessarily helpful depending on ur kids and house), look under beds for food, check school knapsacks
>5 most kids that young aren't so helpful, but I think make up jobs to make them feel a part of it!

3) I think the boys kinda have to see helping as an enjoyable process-or at least not as hard labor. Blast music (if ur up for it) and have everyone work at the same time, so it's a party and not that someone is singled out to work with "no pay".
When I was growing up, my teenaged brothers weren't expected to wash down a fridge, but they were expected to vacuum out the car. They would blast music and the car air conditioning, and all us younger kids would want to help cuz it seemed so fun. Also, we never liked helping my mother before pesach as much because she was all tense and stressed, but we would help my father more readily. The atmosphere is important when you want them to help. Obviously if you can't handle this, maybe see if ur husband can do some of the rallying and pumping up.

4) idk ur 15 year old, but some kids respond well to the approach of "I really need u to lead ur siblings, they look up to u and I could really use their help now." Some kids feel empowered by respect and responsibility, so maybe even tell him that he can supervise the others and not necessarily do the work as longn as the job gets done. But this does depend on ur sons personality...

Good luck dealing with ur depression and pesach cleaning and all the stress involved!!!
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 11:09 am
OP- if you're working a nine to five and you're depressed, your DH should be responsible for managing this year's Pesach cleaning. Traditional roles apply when a woman isn't working. Talk this out with him, but he should be the one organizing this year.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 11:15 am
Fox Rox!

I'm on the flip side - girls only family - and I give my girls incentives to get involved in the Pesach cleaning. Now, being that they are wired differently and they also have plenty of opportunities to earn cash that are easier than cleaning, my incentives are geared towards females: Shopping trips and eating out family time occurs in direct correlation to where we are in the Pesach cleaning.

So those whose closets are desperately outdated and they wouldn't be caught dead in those horrible shoes feel mighty motivated to pitch in and get things moving, if there's a trip to the mall built into the timetable.

If OP's son is likely to get the cleaning moving with the incentive of some cash in his pocket, then that's the way to go.

Fact is, we ourselves get things done by motivation (and I cleaned a particular item for Pesach this morning, that I'd been putting off, and I'm in the midst of enjoying some really yummy sushi.) Why not our kids?
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amother
Taupe


 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 11:28 am
OP here, I want to thank everyone for their input. It's obviously a very controversial subject. I do agree with Fox though...
For all of those telling me I need my DH's support...well, duh! I am the person that asked for advice under the "shalom bayis" subject, because I let my DH know last week that I'm suffering from depression and how much I need his help and support ESPECIALLY in the physical aspect and he reacted by ignoring me...so this is an entire situation in itself...I didnt realize depression causes shalom bayis issues. I feel like my life is crumbling before me and the least I'm asking is for some physical help from my family.
I did not ask the boys to chip in for Pesach yet because I know how hard it is to get them to help me all year round, that's why I came up with this idea of paying them. My two oldest are 15 and 13 and the younger are 10 and 5.
I had luckily already cleaned the bedrooms and closets upstairs prior to having the depression hit me..I pushed myself on Sunday and did the dining room and living room aside for the chairs since that had to be done last minute.
The playroom is in the midst ....and the room where my MIL is going to stay is not done yet...my most important need is help with the heavy duty kitchen work....stove, fridge ...I have 3 fridges and 2 freezers all of which are dirty. And all the cabinets counters etc. I wil take the idea of lowering the amount and charging per task...hopefully I'll get "something" out of it...I will use your suggestions and I AM going to get myself the help emotionally that I need...it is a very scary part of my life...I was the "can do anything in the world" kind of person until this horrible depression hit me like a brick wall falling on my head. Thanks to all of you, I didnt expect so many responses.
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boysrus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 11:36 am
Some great advice in this thread. Hugs to you OP, your situation is not a fun one. But dont worry, you will get there, we all do in the end. I hope it will end up going more smoothly than ou suspect it will.

A suggestion:
This is what I do:
I have a long list of jobs that need doing, everyone over a certain age has to pick a job from hte list and do it. Then they pick another etc until they have helped me a lot.
Incentives for helping:
my constant enthusiastic praise adn verbal appreciation. and I tell them that when we go out for pizza a few days before pesach then if they helped a bit htey will get fries too, nad if they helped a huge amount they will get ice cream too. this incentive always works, for boys age 16 and younger. Maybe this could work for you too?
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MitzadSheini




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:30 pm
Listen to Esther11 and boysrus.

I'd make a family meeting and outline the PROBLEM. Mom's not well (you don't have to go into details), this needs to be done, what do you think we should do? you might be surprised what they come up with. Then you can offer suggestions as well. Everyone is empowered, everyone contributes, no one feels controlled.

Make everyone feel like they came up with the brilliant idea of everyone picking three jobs, rather than telling them to.


Works in theory anyway.
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Miri7




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:51 pm
I didn't have time to read all of the responses. I would say to DS "I have $100 to spend on Pesach cleaning. Here is a detailed list. I can hire a cleaning lady, or you can do the work for the $100. It all needs to be done on these two days. Interested?"

I think that's fine. Doing all of Pesach cleaning is a HUGE job that I wouldn't ask a teen to do all on their own, but I WOULD give the option to make the money.

Wish you the best with your depression - it can truly be debilitating and its a stressful time of year.
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studying_torah




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 3:31 pm
Op, I'm sorry your dh reacted that way. It must be very painful.
It sounds like you got a lot done, kudos to you!
But don't continue to be super woman. Get others on board in whatever way you can right now, and later on once you're healthier you can try to overhaul the kids' behavior.
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Blue jay




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 5:04 pm
The playroom is in the midst ....and the room where my MIL is going to stay is not done yet...my most important need is help with the heavy duty kitchen work....stove, fridge ...I have 3 fridges and 2 freezers all of which are dirty. And all the cabinets counters etc. I wil take the idea of lowering the amount and charging per task...hopefully I'll get "something" out of it..




Your son can totally handle the fridge. Defrost one empty fridge at a time and hand him some bristle brushes and palmolive dish soap and a tub of warm water, some rags. Then scrub, scrub Scrub! Definately a manly mans work! ( give him some compliments along the way it helps!) TEACH YOUR SON NOW SO HE CAN HELP HIS WIFE LATER ONE DAY! Smile Your future daughter in law will thank you!


Let him do the scrubbing, you can do the pesach organizing,

Little siblings are great with dusting with swifters and baby wipes! Put random loose change like quarters under random objects and tell them those are secret "Tips" they can keep. ( this way they will pick up the pot, plant basket or anything and dust underneath!

ITs so important for children to help clean and take care of the house.

My 10 year old washes dishes, the younger ones clear the table and sweep beneath the table.

Get swifter products for dusting!
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justforfun87




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 07 2016, 5:12 pm
No, in an ideal world your boys should help you because you are their mother. Realistically though it is Pesach and you are in a health crisis. YES YES YES pay them and when Pesach is over and you feel better you can slowly piece back together some normalcy.
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