When is it ok to lie?

amother

Emerald

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 12:58 pm

amother wrote:

I guess it is probably ok to lie to save someone's life. How far does that take you? Is it ok to lie to save someone a significant amount of money which will probably save their life?

Opinions?

I was taught never to lie. If your boss is trying to get you to lie so that he can get some kind of funding etc...it is Wrong!

When yeshivas give me forms to fill out so that they can get services and programs ...I write that we are not eligible because that is the truth...the schools hate me for it, but I will stick to my guns and not lie or cheat no matter how much I'm berated for it.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:11 pm

Take my question literally - saving a life.

If someone comes at your neighbor with a gun and asks you a question about something they've done. Yes means they would die, no means they leave them alone. The honest answer is yes. Would you say no?

Take it a step further: a friend's child who is un-insured or under-insured needs serious medical treatment. Would you give over your child's ID card (and other identifying documents) so that he can get the treatment he needs? (obviously, you need a bit of an imagination to imagine the scenario working)

Things like that. Where is it ok?

amother

Apricot

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:36 pm

amother wrote:

Your 2 scenarios are very different.
The first one, with a gun to his, I probably would lie if it wouldn't harm anyone else.
The second, with insurance. Absolutely not! What happens if chv down the line my child needs same or similar treatment? Insurance may not cover it saying it has been done in the past.
More practically speaking; I was out of town and my child needed medication for step throat. Person prescribing was a friend of the host. She offered to prescribe the meds to one of my hosts children so I wouldn't have to pay. But she warned me that if the child gets sick insurance won't come the meds. How can I do that to another person?
Someone in need of medical treatment can raise money or borrow.
So again, it really depends on the specific situation.

The Happy Wife

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:36 pm

amother wrote:

In your first example, the choices are prett limited. Give an answer, maybe tackle the gunman.

In the second case,I can't imagine that would be ok as a first resort. You could try to fundraise to get the money or explore other avenues.

Last edited by The Happy Wife on Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:37 pm

amother wrote:

The insurance scenario is insurance fraud which would lead to prison. It's not just a matter of lying it's against the law to commit insurance fraud.

farm

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

Gun to my head I guess I would point blank tell a lie as long as it's not some way one of the big 3 (killing, adultery, avodah zara).
Committed insurance fraud? NO NO NO WAY.
There are chessed organizations that subsidize upgrading plans when people need to bump up their coverage. Or go collecting door to door and beg with a cup on the subway to raise $ if necessary. I would NEVER give my child's card to save a life. So wrong in so many ways. Plus you will end up in prison and your family will end up without insurance. Then who will save your life and the lives of your children?

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 1:46 pm

farm wrote:

There are chessed organizations that subsidize upgrading plans when people need to bump up their coverage.

To the best of my knowledge, these organizations often actually commit insurance fraud in order to get people covered, and then of course, they pay the premiums to upgrade the plan.

Enrolling people who aren't employees in group coverage is fraud.
Inventing income changes, moves, or other such things to trigger an open enrollment is fraud.

Seems that people think it is ok because they are helping people, so my question is, where does the line get drawn?

gp2.0

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:13 pm

Quote:

Pre-Existing Conditions. Under the Affordable Care Act, health insurance companies can't refuse to cover you or charge you more just because you have a “pre-existing condition” — that is, a health problem you had before the date that new health coverage starts. They also can't charge women more than men.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:36 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Quote:

What does that have to do with anything? If a person doesn't have insurance and Open enrollment is over, they can't get insurance even with pre-ex clauses removed. If a person has insurance, but it has a very narrow network and they can't use the hospitals and specialists they want/need to save their life, pre-ex clauses won't help.

gp2.0

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:37 pm

As for lying in general, I think it definitely has its place. Here are some examples:

1) We missed you at work!
2) what a beautiful baby!
3) yes grandma, I love the quilt!

Some more radical and acceptable forms of lying include being a spy or fighting in the resistance during wartime.

As for lying to save someone's life? Not even a question. Of course I'd lie to a crazy gunman who's about to shoot someone. I can't believe there are people who wouldn't.

gp2.0

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

Children can apply for insurance all year.

Also, if someone walks into an emergency room they have to be treated whether they have insurance or not. So the life saving question just doesn't apply to this example.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 2:43 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Regarding children - maybe in your state. Not in mine. That isn't part of ACA...

They might need to be treated, but they can still have crushing bills from it and/or the top specialists can still refuse to treat them.

gp2.0

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

Now you're proposing a totally different question - is it ok to lie for financial reasons - which is less clear cut than lying to save someone's life.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 4:02 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Now you're proposing a totally different question - is it ok to lie for financial reasons - which is less clear cut than lying to save someone's life.

Right. That's why I posed it as two separate questions in the OP.

(for the record, I don't think it is right. I just know that I've heard this justification so many times for so many things and was curious about how people view it here... Anon, by the way because this just came up IRL)

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 4:06 pm

I think we need more faith in Hashem. If we don't even think to cheat, then we put our resources in better places and figure it out. With all the charity frum people give, why would we need to think of doing it the wrong way. We should NEVER have to come onto anyone and be tested in such away. Hashem should have mercy on us and we should grow in our faith of Him.

amother

Copper

Thu, Apr 07 2016, 6:35 pm

Now that we have the ACA there are almost no reasons a child shouldn't have some sort of coverage- Medicaid even.
And ERs will treat anything. If the bill is too high, you can get help from the "charity" department of the hospital. You don't need a specific hospital- anyone would do to get treatment, especially if you say it's so urgent you can't wait to raise money or arrange help. I would not give my child's ID and Rx card up. Who knows what types of issues may arise? Allergy confusion? what if CPS gets involved? Besides for obvious fraud...