How do you explain "chasdei hashem the girls where found"

tryinghard

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 7:34 pm

amother wrote:

What about the Sassoon family? I'm pointing them out as their tragedy is so beyond belief. Way above the countless other tragedies that happen.

Or the holocaust, how many entire families were wiped out? How many people survived but their life was irrevocably ruined as they lost everyone and everything.

So are you asking why Hashem lets these kinds of things happen? Because that's a totally different question.

We certainly don't say that that is chasdei Hashem - though you can find chassadim within the event - like the fact that Mrs. and Tzipporah survived.

Seas

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 8:03 pm

amother wrote:

I kept checking social media last night for updates on the search for the missing girls. When I woke up this morning the first thing I did was to find out if there was any good news. As of this morning, there wasn't. I am so thrilled that I saw about an hour ago that the girls were found. Judging from the singing and dancing by the rescue workers at the scene, it appears that this story will have the ending we were all hoping for.
I keep reading "chasdei hashem the girls were found". Does this make sense? Hashem controls everything and ultimately caused these girls and their families to go through this traumatic experience. How do we say "chasdei hashem" now? If someone steals my car and then returns it a few days later do I say what a good guy he is for returning my car? I expect to hear responses that it could have been worse, or this brought the klal together, but we really have know idea how hashem works or why things happen. At face value the families of these girls really suffered the last 16 hours or so. How is this chasdei hashem?

Your question is very topical, as the meforshim explain this is essentially a Pesach question, I.e. why do we need to thank Hashem for taking us out of Mitzrayim when He was the One who put us there in the first place?

The answer is alluded to by the hagaddah: In the beginning our forefathers were idolaters... This, according to the meforshim, explains that because we came from 'low stock' so to speak, in order for our neshamos to become cleansed we had to undergo the hardships of Mitzrayim. Once the cleansing was complete Hashem took us out of there and elevated us from all hte other nations by giving us the Torah.

tryinghard

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 8:33 pm

amother wrote:

I guess it's "it's not as bad as it could have been". But I'm with you op. Sometimes it feels like a kid who usually gets hit 12 times with a belt when he misbehaves. Today he only got 6 swots with a paddle. Does he say "oh my father I so kind"? Maybe.

But in this case, NOTHING BAD HAPPENED. Were family and friends frantically worried? Of course. Did anything bad happen to the girls? No. So the 6 swats aren't there either.

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 9:09 pm

tryinghard wrote:

But in this case, NOTHING BAD HAPPENED. Were family and friends frantically worried? Of course. Did anything bad happen to the girls? No. So the 6 swats aren't there either.

Of course something terrible happened. These girls parents spent 16 hours wondering if their daughters were raped and murdered. I can't imagine the pain these families went thru last night. Not to mention the girls themselves Who Suffered thru the night wonderful if thru would die.

amother

Linen

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 9:20 pm

Hashem created this world, and it was perfect. Adam and Chava were in Gan Eden and they had perfect lives. Hashem is capable of creating and maintaining a perfect world, without pain, without terror, without sickness, without fear.

But then Adam and Chava sinned. Humans wanted to make their own choices, and Hashem decided to let them. That is the concept of bechirah.

Hashem decided to see if his creations, the people he loved more than his angels, would be capable of making the right choices, over and over again. That is the point. That is the purpose of humans. Our purpose is to make this world a perfect world, by making the right choices instead of the wrong choices, over and over and over.

He gave us a guide - the Torah. He performs miracles, some open, mostly hidden. But for the most part, he believes in us, His creations, just as we believe in Him. He believes we have the ability, somehow, at some point, to make enough right choices so that the world will be a perfect world again.

Chasdei Hashem - the girls were found. Through the chesed of Hashem, all those people involved in finding those girls woke up this morning and made all the right choices so the girls were found.

The chesed that Hashem did and does was to create us, to create this world, to believe in us and love us despite our many, many mistakes, and for that we can never praise and thank Him enough.

He created us, He created this perfect world that we made imperfect, and now He patiently, generously waits for us to figure out how to make it perfect again. Instead of destroying this whole world and starting over, He shows us chesed. And He waits.

amother

Tan

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 9:51 pm

tryinghard wrote:

But in this case, NOTHING BAD HAPPENED. Were family and friends frantically worried? Of course. Did anything bad happen to the girls? No. So the 6 swats aren't there either.

Really? I can't speak for these girls, but I know the average 16 year old girl would suffer from immense trauma after spending an entire dark, frightening night lost in the woods, stuck in a swamp, not knowing if they were going to be rescued or not.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 11 2016, 10:11 am

amother wrote:

And people who lived in Poland in the 1640s. Or England in the 1100s. Or during the churban (both). And how about Mitzrayim?
Somehow people stay connected. I don't know if I could, but I can learn from them and try to fill my toolbox for whatever challenges I face.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 11 2016, 10:24 am

Seas wrote:

Yes, and for people inclined to do so, go to Naaleh.com and find Shira Smiles on Pesach this year. It's called Returning to Roots and should be available tomorrow.
Along the lines of what Seas wrotes, she quotes the haggada Darkness to Destiny (Rabbi Emanuel Bernstein) who asks this question and explains that a doctor can break a rib, set it, and send the patient on his way and he's cruel. But a doctor can break a rib to get at a more essential, damaged organ, and heal it, and the doctor is a healer and hero.

Again, I wouldn't say this to someone suffering immeasurable pain. But what we have to internalize, so we can draw on it when the chips are down, is that things happen for a reason and we grow from them. That's life: we are to grow. We've all heard people say that they would never have signed up for whatever challenge but having had it, they're the better for it.

Lehavdil al elef alfei havdalos, I'll quote Jim Croce:
And in looking at back at the places I've been
And the changes that I left behind
I just look at myself to find
I've learned the hard way every time...
And in looking back at the faces I've seen
I would sure be the first one to say
When I look at myself today
I wouldn't have done it any other way

TeachersNotebook

Mon, Apr 11 2016, 11:30 pm

There are two things to say "chasdei Hashem" on in this situation. One is on the terrible ordeal everyone had to go through. I would understand your question for this- why praise Hashem for such a terrible ordeal? It's extremely hard to see this in the thick of it, but objectively one can understand that everything Hashem does is for the good, so this must be also. Just because we cannot see the good right away, doesn't mean it's not there. If someone praised Hashem for a bad situation, I wouldn't be surprised about Hashem deserving the praise. I would be surprised that the person had enough strength to remember and truly believe that this too is for the good.

The second thing to say "chasdei Hashem" on is the wonderful ending. What is wrong with saying, "It could have been worse, and I'm thankful that it wasn't." Once you already believe that Hashem controls everything- the good and the bad- and that He doles it out with wisdom and mercy. Once you already trust Him and love Him and believe He loves you... what's wrong with thanking Him for doing something so obviously good?

etky wrote:

This. Exactly.
Both chessed and din are equal reflections of emet - Divine, absolute justice.
People often mistakenly perceive an unaccountable or apparently unwarranted salvation or chas veshalom calamity as an event that suspends or supercedes justice.
This is not true. Both chessed and din operate within the system of Divine justice.
They do not exceed or rupture its bounds.
As humans we only perceive the most superficial layers of this system.
Our labels and expressions are a reflection of our superficial, human understanding of events.

Etky, can you expound on this? I understand how our perceptions of events are limited by being human, but I have a few questions about the rest of your post. First of all, I thought din was justice. Why do you translate emet (truth?) as justice? And secondly, to me the difference between chessed and din are the levels of mercy involved (or lack of mercy involved). How do they both relate to emet?

Thanks! Smile

etky

Tue, Apr 12 2016, 3:11 am

TeachersNotebook wrote:

Din is a term from the semantic field of the system of justice known to man. It means laws and also an accounting, a reckoning. When G-d governs the world through midat hadin He is operating according to a comprehensible system of rules and retribution that are the underpinning of his 'contract' with Am Yisrael (the Torah) and with humanity as a whole.
When G-d seemingly acts outside this system and employs midat harachamim or chessed it might seem that He is operating in defiance or in contravention of this system of justice which some would interpret as truth (this is the theme of sefer Yonah).
This, however is not the case. Absolute justice (emet) within which G-d operates transcends the rules and laws and the system of rewards and punishments that He has given us.
Hashem, unlike the pagan deities, is not capricious or given to whims. There is a system of true justice in place that is mostly inscrutable to us, that incorporates both chessed and din. Both midot are part of this same, truly just system the aim of which is the betterment of the world.
There are obviously other hashkafot but when I look at this world and its history, this is what resonates for me.

ora_43

Tue, Apr 12 2016, 8:05 am

amother wrote:

Here's where that analogy falls apart IMO: the natural state of a child is to not get hit, whereas the natural state of humans is not for life to be good.

In your example, if the father does nothing, the child would go through the day without pain. When people say "chasdei Hashem," OTOH, the assumption is that either:

1. the natural state of humans is non-existence, and every moment of life is a gift from Hashem.

2. there is a natural order that's sort of separate from Hashem (or appears to be, anyway) - and under that natural order, we would have expected something worse to happen.

In this case, that would mean saying, basically, the girls got themselves lost, and Hashem made sure they were found. Getting lost was never a punishment from Hashem, it was just part of the natural order of things.

Of course we can't know for sure what Hashem "wants" in any case, or what the natural order outcome would have been (if that's even a thing). People give their own interpretations. I think it's good that people tend to err on the side of gratitude, and on the side of not viewing bad occurrences as punishment from Hashem (IOW, on the side of saying "chasdei Hashem" about the good).

TeachersNotebook

Tue, Apr 12 2016, 11:42 pm

etky wrote:

There is a system of true justice in place that is mostly inscrutable to us, that incorporates both chessed and din. Both midot are part of this same, truly just system the aim of which is the betterment of the world.

Thanks so much for the explanation! I'm sorry for hounding you about this; I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. Can you give a concrete example of this?

etky

Wed, Apr 13 2016, 3:54 am

TeachersNotebook wrote:

Thanks so much for the explanation! I'm sorry for hounding you about this; I'm just trying to wrap my head around it. Can you give a concrete example of this?

No, because it is an article of faith, of perception and interpretation of events.
There is no concrete example -you either believe that Hashem governs the world this way or you have an alternate belief.
if it is an anchor in the sources that you are asking about then Sefer Yonah (again, one of many interpretations), as I mentioned before, is a good example: Yonah (ben Amitai) perceives midat hachessed as a contradiction of Emet, which to him is G-d's governance of the world through midat hadin - actions and consequences- according to which the city of Ninveh did not deserve a chance to do tshuva and be spared destruction. He prefers death over having this conception upended, hence his flight to Tarshish.
W/O getting into the entire book, G-d shows Yonah that his conception is false: Emet is manifested not only through midat hadin but also through chessed, without which the entire world would not be able to exist, even for a second. Man should not purport to understand G-d's calculations - we will never be able to grasp the Emet (true justice) that He represents.

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, Apr 13 2016, 7:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

Ora, you hit the nail on the head. Hashem did not make these girls get lost. The girls lost their way themselves, and that put them in a precarious situation. Someone upthread thought about the possibilities of rape and murder; when I first heard about these lost girls, I was concerned about drowning or being eaten by alligators. There were enough bad outcomes to worry about. Moreover, even without murderers and alligators, and even with rescue helicopters, finding two lost girls is no sure thing. Many similar stories have ended in tragedy.

So to me, saying "chasdei Hashem" seems entirely appropriate. The question about why such chesed, the type that results in a happy ending, isn't manifest in every case is a different story. Thank G-d for this wonderful outcome, and go from there.