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Being judgemental

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Seas

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 4:47 pm

One shouldn't judge others. There is however some confusion as to when this dictom applies, and it is often misused, so allow me to make the distinctions.

Actions can and should always be judged. They are either good or bad, either permitted or prohibited. There is no problem of being judgemental when judging a specific action, as that is a factual question, not one of nuance.
Example: What you just said is loshon hora.
How dare you judge me? Do you know what she did to me?
I'm not judging you, I.e. saying that you personally are bad, but the fact remains that those words are loshon hora. It doesn't matter why the child made the mistake on the test, but 1+1=3 is the wrong answer. That is an objective fact.

People should not be judged in terms of good/bad etc. One can however make a factual statement based on their actions.
Example: You just spoke loshon hora.
How dare you judge me? Do you know what she did to me?
I'm not saying your evil for speaking loshon hora or that you will go to hell. The fact remains, however, that the words that came out of your mouth were loshon hora. Therefore you spoke loshon hora. That is an objective fact.

Determining that people are good/bad or will be going to hell is wrong, as this is only for Hashem to judge. It is here that the axiom 'One should not judge others' is relevant, because by passing judgement on the actual person one implies that they're in a position to do so, and no one has the right or knowledge to judge others. BTW this applies just as much to bein odom lechaveiro as to bein odom lamokoim.

To summarize:
"That deed is wrong" is okay.
"What you did is wrong" is okay.
"You are a..." is judgemental and should not be done.

Stars

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 4:49 pm

Huh? Just because a deed is wrong in your eyes doesn't mean it's automatically wrong for everyone. So yes, saying "what you did was wrong" is being judgemental. Very judgemental.

Last edited by Stars on Thu, Apr 14 2016, 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Seas

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 4:51 pm

Stars wrote:

Huh? Just because a deed is wrong in your eyes doesn't mean it's automatically wrong.

Obviously people can debate whether the deed is actually wrong. My point is that there's nothing wrong in passing judgement on an action.

Maya

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:19 pm

Seas, I pity the people who live with you.

singleagain

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:20 pm

Seas, I disagree. I think it is very wrong to pass judgment on actions. especially, out loud in public. It can be extremely humiliating and often serves no purpose. for instance, the example of speaking loshon hara I see several problems (1) the laws of lashon hara are very complex and not black and white but grey (2) this is supposed to be a safe place for people to vent, and yes a lot of venting probably falls under the general umbrella of lashon hara, but keeping such anger inside, can be extremely harmful to an individual. --- then for someone to go and post and say 'you are doing something wrong.' what is the purpose of that? it does not change that it has been done, often the person knows it's not 100% on the up and up but if they do not release it here they might explode elsewhere. --- Unless someone says 'I did xyz, was that wrong?' there is no purpose to pass any judgement, unless you need to make yourself seem superior in some way, and if that is the case, then that's a whole host of other problems. --- and remember, there are real ppl behind each and every screen name and amother post on this website. and passing judgement on their actions can humiliate them immensely and as it says:

.תני תנא קמיה דרב נחמן בר יצחק: כל המלבין פני חבירו ברבים כאילו שופך דמים

One who embarrasses another in public, it is as if that person shed blood.

— Babylonian Talmud, Bava Mezia 58b

please think about that the next time you feel it necessary to judge someone's actions especially out loud in public

amother

Ginger

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:24 pm

You can do whatever you like, most of us live in free countries.

You can justify all you want, our brains have endless capacity for rationalization.

But if you don't want to annoy the hell out of everyone you come into contact with, you will be an adult and keep whatever judgements you do make to yourself.

(And - when you're ready for the next step - train your brain to stop viewing every action every person does in life as something to be judged, whether for good or bad. It. Is. None. Of. Your. Business.)

cnc

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:28 pm

amother wrote:

Ya. This.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:33 pm

Seas wrote:

. My point is that there's nothing wrong in passing judgement on an action.

I commend you, Seas, for choosing to tackle what appears to me, by what you write here in general in this site, your personal Yetzer Hara. A tendency to judge when you should not. It is a difficult yh to have, because when you give in to it, you do not garner a lot of sympathy. So I really feel for you. It's hard to have a yh which is so off-putting to others

So to start with- your statement above is wrong. You can, and should, judge what is correct FOR YOU. Not for other people. Because you DO NOT know the other person's whole story. That's where you are making your mistake, and getting everyone off-side.

A piece of food can be kosher for one person and traif for another. The same is true of every action. That is why you should NEVER judge. And I believe you should heed the words I the Rambam. Recognise that you have a tendency to judge unfavorably, you should go to the opposite extreme and judge favourably even when an action SEEMS obviously wrong to you.

Kol hakavod Seas. Truly. Because most people do not fight the fight against their yh and their animal soul, so head on, as you appear to be willing to do here.

amother

Ginger

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:38 pm

mtzadhasheini wrote:

Wow!! What a beauty of a post!!

sequoia

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:48 pm

We've been through this.

"XYZ is forbidden."
"It's ok, I asked my rabbi."
"He must not be a real rabbi."

"ABC is required."
"In my shitta it's rather DEF."
"Must be a fake shitta."

"My husband learned Q."
"Really, mine learned P."
"Your husband is wrong."

Doesn't fly here. We're too insanely different.

Last edited by sequoia on Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ecru

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:48 pm

Going anonymous cuz Ive said this a lot IRL. My grandma was a wonderful woman whom everyone adored. She had nice things to say to everyone she encountered. She told me before she passed away that she is not afraid to die because in Shamayim Hashem judges you according to how you have judged others in your lifetime. She was able to say with peace that she had always judged everyone favorably. Just something to take into consideration.

EnnuiGalore

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:50 pm

Seas, please get off imamother and into the office of a competent therapist. Nearly everything you post here is like nails on a chalkboard, and you must be an absolutely peach in real life, due to all of your issues. Please get help.

Last edited by EnnuiGalore on Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

bluebird

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 5:51 pm

So where does being dan l'kaf zechus fit into your philosophy?

The Happy Wife

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:01 pm

Seas, have you ever learned about the halachas of giving rebuke?

Cookie Monster

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 6:25 pm

OP you know that there are lots of people who feel it is prohibited to be on the internet, right? So do they have a right to judge your action of being on the internet?

greenfire

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 7:50 pm

I strongly urge that you look in the mirror and promptly tell this to yourself

as for everything being black & white ... you surely forget there are 50 shades of grey Idea

insulting people then acting childish are not very becoming

who's judging whom ?!?!?!

Seas

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 8:35 pm

mtzadhasheini wrote:

So to start with- your statement above is wrong. You can, and should, judge what is correct FOR YOU. Not for other people. Because you DO NOT know the other person's whole story. That's where you are making your mistake, and getting everyone off-side.

A piece of food can be kosher for one person and traif for another. The same is true of every action.

Fair point. I think my wording was a bit clumsy. It's not that every action is unambiguously either right or wrong, it's that the actions can be judged objectively and independent of the one who does them.

Let's say for example someone expresses a very krum view in Yiddishkeit. It is my opinion that one may call out that view and name it as krum, even though there's an extension of that judgement that the person who said it is also krum. 1+1 does not equal 3 just because a lovely person said it or if a sad person said it. The fact that that view was actually expressed by someone shouldn't have any bearing on the judgement of the actual view.

Of course that is not to say that 'I' am the who decides what is krum and what is not. For that we can debate it like civilised people without throwing out insults or distorting the other's position.

(As an aside, not 'every action' can have a different din according to circumstances. For example smoking on. Shabbos is always chillul Shabbos r"l.)

Seas

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 8:37 pm

bluebird wrote:

So where does being dan l'kaf zechus fit into your philosophy?

That would be for the third kind. Preferably one shouldn't judge others at all, but if you do judge someone, make sure it's l'kaf zechus.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 8:48 pm

Again Seas, I'm really impressed that you are trying to tackle this head on. However, let me take your last point first. I think there COULD be a situation where what you see as smoking on shabbas could be permissible. There could be a person who has a life-threatening disease that is helped by inhaling a certain drug through a cigarette. So in that case, if the person was a chole shyaish bo sakanah, they could actually be REQUIRED to smoke on shabbas.

Now let's talk about you. I think that you are coming to realise that you do have a bit of a problem in this area. That's why you started the thread. (If you are still not sure, read and truly listen to some of the other people's responses. Hashem wants you to hear them. That is why they are on this thread). So we often hear this line, judge the action, not the person. Personally I don't like it at all, mainly because WE NEVER KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF THE ACTION. As in all of the details of it, AND the inner workings of all the people involved. But even so, FOR YOU, who has a problem in this area, it is not good advice. Because I think you really need to go to the other extreme and not judge anybody or anything. That seems to me the best way to begin overcoming this problem.

And well done for persisting in this. Turned around, you could the person who truly learns to be dan lchav zchut, and teaches others to do so.

imasinger

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:17 pm

Seas wrote:

I understand your point. As our non Jewish friends put it, "love the sinner, hate the sin."

The question is, what does one hope to gain by stating that a person has done an aveira, according to one's own interpretation?

If the other person has been taught differently, a blatant statement "you are wrong" will be perceived at best as rude and annoying, and will lead those who have been taught different interpretations of halacha to say, "no, YOU are wrong." In which case, the critic's statement has done nothing in their minds except to strengthen their resolve to keep doing the thing that the critic finds objectionable.

If the other person has some notion in common with the critic that their action was not right, they are going to feel guilty and act defensive when it is publicly pointed out by someone who has not formed a real connection.

We are taught that one may only give tochacha n a manner in which the recipient will be able to be mekabel.

At this point, I feel I must apologize to you, Seas, by not following what I said above, and lashing out at you on a recent thread. You had said some very hurtful things (not having two brain cells to rub together, etc), and I got angry. I should have waited until I was calm to respond.

But hopefully you can see my point. Did my strongly worded post help change your thinking? Did my words on that thread do anything other than annoy you in return? It's an example of the flaw in the logic that any perceived aveira should be called out publicly.

Seas wrote:

Of course that is not to say that 'I' am the who decides what is krum and what is not. For that we can debate it like civilised people without throwing out insults or distorting the other's position.

In order to have that kind of debate, do you think it works better to start by saying, "Your action was wrong!"? Or might there be a more productive means of beginning a "civilised debate?" And how should a person respond in a situation where a position was "distorted"? Is it more productive to call them names and put them down, or to continue to clarify a position?

Last, and most important, it is vital to examine one's own motives in speaking out in judgment.

Often, we can fall into a kind of gaiva of self righteousness, where the underlying reason for pointing to another's flaws (perceived or real) is to inflate one's own ego.

It is always a good idea, before any post other than one asking a question, to ask, "have I written something that will benefit others, and/or help me to grow?"

Many of us delete far more than we post, just for this reason.

I hope you will "hear" this post in the spirit in which it was written.

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