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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:07 pm
singleagain wrote:
the words are וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ v'ahavtah l'reiacha camocha, --- I was unaware that reiacha meant a Jew.... as far as I've always heard it translates to neighbor, which in my dictionary, is someone who lives next to me.


WADR you're mistaken. A quick google search pointed me in the direction of the Rambam hilchos dai'os. Please see the halachos 4-12

http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/1206.htm
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:09 pm
It's totally useless.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:10 pm
Maya wrote:
It's totally useless.


May I ask why you're in this thread then?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:11 pm
Seas wrote:
Shabbos is one of the main foundations of Judaism. One who is mechallel Shabbos in public has a din of a non-Jew, in that if they touch wine it becomes assur and more. There's more to say on the matter but basically this point.


Are you friends with any non Jews? Would you ever eat with one during, say, lunch at work?
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:14 pm
marina wrote:
Are you friends with any non Jews? Would you ever eat with one during, say, lunch at work?


I'm have several non-Jewish co-workers and I'm polite and nice to all of them, but not a friend. I wouldn't eat or mingle with them.

A Jewish OTD mechallel Shabbos is in a way worse than someone who was simply not born Jewish.


Last edited by Seas on Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:15 pm
SueDanym/ TammyTammy, is that you?
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:16 pm
gold21 wrote:
SueDanym/ TammyTammy, is that you?


Do you honestly think there is only one person in the world with these views?
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:18 pm
gold21 wrote:
SueDanym/ TammyTammy, is that you?


I'm going to report my own post so Yael can check into it....
Something seems fishy with this poster, especially the fact that she bumped an old thread today to comment that something is against halacha. (I'm not saying that I don't agree with her, but I'm not in the habit of looking for old threads to comment to people that they're wrong.)
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:18 pm
Seas wrote:
WADR you're mistaken. A quick google search pointed me in the direction of the Rambam hilchos dai'os. Please see the halachos 4-12

http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/i/1206.htm


1) I don't read hebrew very well without nekudot

2) I was commenting on the words in the pasuk, not denying maimonides is a wonderful commentator --- but have you not learned 70 faces of Torah... Torah can be interpreted many ways... so don't tell me my way is absolutely wrong

3) I don't believe you actually are showing respect, otherwise you wouldn't have to say "WADR" it reminds me very much of this passage from a book:

“I don't mean to be rude—" he began, in a tone that threatened rudeness in every syllable.
"Yet, sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often,"

I feel the same way about "with all due respect----" so I'll say to you, "yet, sadly disrespect occurs alarmingly often" -- therefore, it's prob best not to say anything

[oh and to clear things up, I know I sound disrespectful, at least I'm not denying it.]
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cnc




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:19 pm
Seas wrote:
Do you honestly think there is only one person in the world with these views?


I don't think that it's specifically the view that is the issue.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:20 pm
cnc wrote:
I don't think that it's specifically the view that is the issue.


100% agree
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:23 pm
cnc wrote:
I'm going to report my own post so Yael can check into it....
Something seems fishy with this poster, especially the fact that she bumped an old thread today to comment that something is against halacha. (I'm not saying that I don't agree with her, but I'm not in the habit of looking for old threads to comment to people that they're wrong.)


It was actually 'amother' who bumped the thread (which became active again recently) but whatever, go ahead.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:25 pm
Seas wrote:
You pose a difficult question, one that arises any time a policy is moved from the abstract to the individual. Let me ask you a different question to illustrate:

Imagine someone who's committed a crime we'll all agree is abhorrent and deserving of a lengthy jail sentence - perhaps rape or child molestation. Now this man, instead of being brought to justice, happened to be surrounded by 'do-gooders' who hid him away and made sure he gets the help needed to rehabilitate (they also provided therapy and support for the victim).

It's now 20 years later and you're at someone's home pontificating about rapists and how they should be jailed for life, when the man of the house interrupts, "20 years ago I raped someone. It's only due to the acceptance and love of my friends and family that I was able to completely rehabilitate, and I've actually set up a help-center for rape victims. Also, I managed to raise a beautiful family of G-d fearing children. My victim was also helped and she has bh moved on to raise a lovely family of her own, and she's strong enough that 7 years ago we met and she forgave me completely.

"Would you have rather I'd have wasted my life in jail and not been able to help all those people?"

The answer to that of course is no, obviously the current results are better than had he been in jail. But crucially, neither should this anecdote change our policy on rapists!

So to answer your question, I'm ecstatic that you've done tshuva and are now keeping Shabbos, I really am. Still, at the time when you weren't, you were acting out of your own free will, and as we all know actions have consequences. If one of these consequences is becoming shunned by frum people, unfortunately so be it.

This is especially true when it comes to you and me, since I have no obligation to befriend you (or continue to do so). It's much more complicated when someone's child ch"v goes OTD, and I daven to Hashem I should never ever be put in this position where one of my descendants is mechallel Shabbos (there is such a case in my immediate family and all I can say is the parents are going through hell on earth). Therefore, I will not comment on such a situation.


Well, when it comes to incarceration and rehabilitation, data is really important and should drive all decision making. So if the data actually shows that there are better options to meet whatever you think is the goal of incarceration, whether that is punishment or protecting society or rehabilitation, then society will change its policy on incarceration.

So what is the goal of the reject-OTD-Mechallel-Shabbos-people policy? Is the goal to scare the rest of frum people into staying frum? Is it to rehabilitate that specific person? What does the data show about the success of this policy?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:30 pm
gold21 wrote:
SueDanym/ TammyTammy, is that you?


For the first four years of this forum's existence, the main moderator, second in line after Yael, made Seas look positively reform.

The population here has shifted significantly to the left since then and we have more diversity here, which is nice. But there are huge swaths of the frum world who completely agree with Seas, and it's important to have her perspective here as well.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:30 pm
Seas wrote:
Do you honestly think there is only one person in the world with these views?


One other poster who had that writing style, I forget the name, but she/he doesnt post anymore
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:32 pm
marina wrote:
For the first four years of this forum's existence, the main moderator, second in line after Yael, made Seas look positively reform.

The population here has shifted significantly to the left since then and we have more diversity here, which is nice. But there are huge swaths of the frum world who completely agree with Seas, and it's important to have her perspective here as well.


I can only speak for myself, I am not against perspective, I am against the way it is being transmitted. especially as it is hard to read tone over the internet, ppl should be extra careful of what words they use, the examples they choose and how they phrase things.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:32 pm
marina wrote:
For the first four years of this forum's existence, the main moderator, second in line after Yael, made Seas look positively reform.

The population here has shifted significantly to the left since then and we have more diversity here, which is nice. But there are huge swaths of the frum world who completely agree with Seas, and it's important to have her perspective here as well.


Lol yeah omg she definitely held conservative views. But she wrote passionately and with emotion... like a woman.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:33 pm
gold21 wrote:
One other poster who had that writing style, I forget the name, but she/he doesnt post anymore


You're probably thinking of mdoif.

There were many similar posts posted under mdoif's name.

Honestly, I really hope she/he is Sue Danym rather than a poor, misguided woman who actually believes this.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:37 pm
Seas wrote:
I'm have several non-Jewish co-workers and I'm polite and nice to all of them, but not a friend. I wouldn't eat or mingle with them.

A Jewish OTD mechallel Shabbos is in a way worse than someone who was simply not born Jewish.


Well, friendship can be challenging when people don't share similar experiences, communities, etc. So I'm not sure how you'd be friends with someone who doesn't keep shabbos anyway- their life is probably very different from yours.

How do you think your conduct towards someone who is mechallel shabbos would differ based on if that person was a tinok shenishba or not?
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:38 pm
gold21 wrote:
SueDanym/ TammyTammy, is that you?


slightly OT: I don't quite understand what this means... I'm guessing this is imamother jargon similar to Mary/Gary Stu's in fan fiction ... can someone clue me in?
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