Is it ok to tell my 7th grader that sleep away is too expens

amother

Black

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 9:43 am

So we sent my daughter to sleep away camp last summer. She liked it. This year she wasn't sure she wanted to go back. Finally she decided there is nothing better to do so she wants to go again.
In my opinion $3000 for one month is not something you do bec there is nothing better.
In any event my husband and I both work full time and more to cover expenses. We have credit card debt. That being said we can both do extra work to get extra money to pay for the camp. I don't think that is necessary.
So, is it ok to tell my daughter that it is too expensive? I know in general you're not supposed to talk about finances with kids, so they don't worry..
I do teach my kids smart shopping and comparing prices, all the while telling them Hashem gives us money to buy everything we need and even though we can afford the designer brand doesn't mean we should spend on it. So I doubt she would be concerned that we can't afford things...But Id like other opinions please.

watergirl

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 9:59 am

Totally fine. I told my daughter the same thing. If $3000 was spent on something that was just ok and not great and wonderful in the mind of my kid, I wouldnt send back either. In fact, I sent my step son to overnight camp (I paid for it myself, long story). The camp let us know that he ditched many activities like learning and davening (it was a learning camp!) and he only went to meals and a few activities here and there. The third summer I told him that I would pay for only the part that he attended and he could pay for the parts that he skipped! So I would pay for 1/4th and he could cover the rest. He stayed home.

My daughter also wants to go to overnight, she has never been before. We just dont have the money, so she isnt going. Yes, all her friends are going. Yes, she will be lonely. I still dont have the money (dont have the ability to do the summer job anymore). Yes, its sad. No, she cant go. Yes, I told her that its too expensive.

imasinger

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 10:01 am

This is a tough one, because there are multiple interpretations of "nothing better to do."

It could be Teenspeak for "I really got a lot out of it."

Or it could mean, "It wasn't super great, but it was better than the other choices, whatever, guess I'll pick that."

Or both, on alternate Tuesdays, depending on hormones.

What are the other choices for summer plans?

Can she work (babysit, or you pay her for extra household chores) so that she shows she is willing to put a persnal stake in this?

amother

Black

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 10:15 am

So she actually means that it was fun, so I guess I will go again. She refuses to go to daycamp because its babyish. Though I think her age might be fine bec its the oldest..She doesn't mind staying home and working the whole summer. But I dont think a young child should work a whole summer. Its too much. She doesn't realize that it's not fun to take care of toodlers all day in the heat. She will be working in a backyard camp second half. She would not want to use that money to pay for camp. Honestly her $200 wouldn't make a dent in the $3000.

FranticFrummie

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 10:32 am

Wait, who says you can't talk to kids about finances? I can get not dumping your daily bills on them, and moaning all the time, but financial responsibility is something that needs to be earned early in life.

DD wants lots of things that are out of our budget. I sympathize with her, I help her come up with strategies and options, and if it's just not doable, I tell her.

I'll say something like, "You know what else would be nice? A diamond bracelet and a new car. Lots of people have them, but we don't. I would like to have things I can't have, too."

I remind her that Hashem gives us everything we NEED, but not always what we want. We talk about counting our blessings, and thinking of others who are more in need than we are. We also talk about how not having something we want is part of Hashem's plan, and He knows what is best for us.

Our family motto is "Who is rich? The one who is satisfied with what we have." ~Pirkei Avot

Yes, it's super hard for a teen or tween to understand that, but it's all part of chinuch, and prevents setting kids up for financial disaster as adults, or having an entitled attitude.

spring13

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 10:53 am

If you can't afford it, you can't afford it, and it's ok to tell her that it's not going to work out this year. You don't have to stress her out with details about your mortgage or credit card debt, but you can say that it's a lot of money and you and Abba decided that it's not a good idea to spend so much on camp right now.

Then you can brainstorm some other options for what she can do for that half of the summer. Maybe a craft class or sport or planting a garden? There must be ways she can pass the time that are productive but not boring.

amother

Blush

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 11:07 am

I think it's fine to say you can't afford it. It might even help her make up her mind if she really wants to go that badly or not. My parents would tell us when something was too expensive. Sometimes they;d be like we can get you/pay for X if you REALLY want it, but it may mean that we wont be able to get you Y (or something else in the future). It was fine hearing they couldn't afford something. It's not like they were constantly stressing over being able to pay rent or buy us socks or something, that's what they mean when they say be careful talking finances in front of the kids I think.

Amarante

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 11:21 am

As FF wrote, it is perfectly fine, in fact it is necessary, to let children know basics of what a family can afford. That is quite a bit different than letting them know every detail of salaries or assets etc.

When growing up, I had no idea what the family income was but I certainly knew that my family couldn't afford everything other people could afford and conversely that we had more than others. My friends and I were laughing at how it would never have entered our minds to ask to go to Disneyland but outings to Cony Island were fine. Lol.

Since I was younger, without explicitly stated, I could tell that finances were easier as older sibling no longer were in school and so I could buy more clothing at better stores. Lol

But definitely, if I had asked for some big ticket item that was not affordable, my parents would have told me they couldn't afford it. Certainly if they had consumer debt they wouldn't go further in debt unless it was a necessity and not a luxury. On the other hand, if they ever had any problems providing us with necessities, the children were not privy to it and I assume at some points, money was tight in terms of basics.

Last edited by Amarante on Fri, Apr 15 2016, 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total

SRS

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 11:37 am

Of course you can tell your daughter you can't afford it. And you can't. Now you just need to be careful to be living within a budget you can afford to further drive home the important lessons that parents do need to teach about finances, namely how to prioritize and live within your means.
If she has never heard those words and is bat mitzvah age, now is the time to say them. You need not dump the details of your debt on her. I think you can admit to making mistakes and that those mistakes make current spending more difficult so she understands that the decisions she makes as a young person are decisions that live a life of their own. She is 12, not 5.

What you have to be careful of is telling kids that you can't afford this, that, and the other thing, and then turn around and buy this, that, or another thing. So if you don't send her to sleepaway camp, I'd be careful to not turn around and spend obnoxious amounts on her bat mitzvah for your own gratification. However, if you need an HVAC replacement, that isn't even part of the camp equation.

Fox

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 1:36 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

What FF said -- a thousand times over!

From what I understand, the idea of not sharing financial details has two goals: (1) To avoid making children feel insecure or imagining dire scenarios; and (2) To set the standard that children are not equal decision-makers when it comes to financial decisions.

Unfortunately, people with all-or-nothing mentalities are often the ones giving advice, and they've advanced this idea that children should never know anything about the family's finances.

And then everyone is downright shocked when they reach adulthood without the ability to determine value or exercise deferred gratification!

OP, I wouldn't hesitate to sit down with DD and say, "This is not an expenditure that we think is a good idea for our family right now." You don't have to have an elaborate excuse, though I believe it's a good idea to give kids a basis for comparison. They should know that $2900 is approximately a month's mortgage; two months' food and clothing . . . or whatever. Or if you're wealthy and want to give that to tzedekkah or invest in a Jewish business, let them know specifically just how much that will buy.

Those tween year summers are murder. The kids are too old to just hang around and play, and they're too young for most jobs. Some ideas in addition to the ones already mentioned:

* Part-time mother's helper
* Assistant at a local day camp (our local camps have a whole system for this that includes some age-appropriate special activities for the junior counselors).
* Paid household work (in addition to regular chores). Both I and my kids did family laundry during the summers for modest sums. I loved it as a kid, and I really loved it as a mom!
* Take a class or lessons in art, music, sewing, swimming, woodworking, or whatever she's interested in.
* Make family dinners several times a week, including selecting recipes, making grocery lists, etc.
* Investigate kids' programs at local universities. A lot of colleges offer one-week or even shorter programs on various topics in science or the arts. Probably not an option if you want to keep her in a strictly Jewish environment, but many of these programs aren't residential and aren't focused on friendships and camaraderie, like a camp might be.

Certainly, the advantage to any paying option is that your DD can save the money toward going to camp in the future.

Hatzlacha!

amother

Pewter

Sat, Apr 16 2016, 2:23 pm

Does she have any other friends not going to camp?
Maybe instead of taking that extra job you can arrange with the other mothers to split the time / costs of keeping them happy.
You can sign her up for a course that she's interested in (cake/ cookie decorating, art, music lessons...) for part of the time, and you can do stuff like taking them to to local tourist attractions, amusement parks, pool, ice skating, beach ect.
It still would come out cheaper then 2900$

And yes explain that you can't afford it right now and ask her to help you brainstorm for a way to have an amazing summer

eschaya

Sun, Apr 17 2016, 12:29 am

11 yo Dd wants to go to camp this year, so we told her frankly and openly that sleep away camp is very expensive. But we also told her that if she wants to babysit and work throughout the year and pay for half, we would love to pay for the rest. So she has been. She has almost reached her goal. I don't think there is anything wrong with letting a child know that we can't afford her every whim, but that we want to help her as much as possible. I rather think this is quite healthy... she will understand better the value in working hard and achieving a goal, the value of money, and I hope she will appreciate her every moment in camp more, knowing all her hours of work that went into making it possible. (Our camp cost 2k, btw).