Why would any religious person vote for bernie sanders??

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:45 pm

marina wrote:

Yes, this would be part of a foreign policy analysis. And if this is the very main foreign policy concern, then I guess that a one-issue voter would go for whomever supports Israel best in the face of Islamic terror.

I don't really think, however, that supporting Israel is the only foreign policy piece a voter has to consider. For example, I cannot imagine a complete analysis of a candidate's foreign policy without considering the US response towards ISIS, a position that may not be related to US support of Israel.

I think they are very much related.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:51 pm

Marina, for a lot of us, it's not an either/or issue of loyalty.

As a recent olah from America, most of the people I love dearly still live there. I have an interest in keeping America safe and prosperous. As a new Israeli, I have an interest in being safe and prosperous here. I don't see a contradiction in that.

I will be voting for Trump if a have to, but I'll be holding my nose the whole time. I hate that the election comes down to the lesser of evils, and I'm not voting because it's a candidate I love. I'm still mourning the loss of Dr. Carson in the race. Crying

DrMom

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:54 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

Singling out Americans who care about Israel for "treason" is disgusting

Disgusting is a strong word, I guess as is treason.

I just don't know a better word to use to express my concerns about this idea that Jews, because of their nationality, are expected to prioritize another country's welfare at the polls over their own.

I think the security of Israel is very much tied to the security of the US.

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:56 pm

marina wrote:

Tell me why you made that exception.

What if a particular university was known for excluding Jews for decades and decades? Would it be unethical discrimination for that university to accord particular positive attention towards Jewish applicants as a way to remedy their past bigotry?

Someone whose citizenship was revoked unfairly deserves to have it rectified.A Jewish college student expelled due to a quota should be readmitted without any entrance exams

However a college that had a quota system against Jews in the past has no moral obligation to discriminate in favor of current Jewish applicants who weren't subjected to those quotas.And to do so at the expense of non-Jewish applicants who weren't born when those quotas existed is morally wrong.

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 1:56 pm

DrMom wrote:

I don't think so. If you think so, can you explain why?

I think that it's a way to make amends and a strong statement about the university's regret of its past conduct.

This is a bit of a separate issue, but what if I want Jews in my university for some other reason? Say this is a law school and some classes compare ancient legal systems in a historical context. Other classes address employment discrimination. Or art theft during the Shoah. It might be good not to just have classes full of white Protestant males. Would it be okay if I wanted to add points to Jewish applicants for those reasons?

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:01 pm

marina wrote:

No Not if you believe in "equal opportunity under the law"

What if a school feels they would be better off only accepting students from a upper middle class white background.Is that OK? Or essentially different?

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:03 pm

leah233 wrote:

Well, you're not just talking about the people whose citizenship was revoked, are you? You're also talking about their descendants, right?

And if the Jewish student had been allowed to attend, his or her descendants would be alumni- legacy students who are always given a higher priority at every university. So isn't it fair to make it up to that person's descendants?

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:04 pm

marina wrote:

What if all your new Jewish students were rabidly pro-BDS, ignorant of history, and constantly holding protests instead of going to classes? How would that help the academic exchange of free ideas? Would you have a vetting process to ensure that your Jewish students were going to be educated enough on Jewish issues, to ensure that they were capable of positive contribution?

Is there something in white male Protestant DNA that prevents them from learning about Jewish issues and discussing them intelligently? (and if that person is a ger, do they suddenly get a DNA change when they become Jewish?)

Way too many holes in your argument, IMO. I believe people should be admitted on merit, and nothing else.

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:07 pm

leah233 wrote:

Is this your position only for legally-protected categories, such as race and religion, or also for non protected categories such as poverty? Say I wanted poor people to have a better chance at my school or just wanted more diverse socio economic classes? Would it be okay to assign points for poverty? Other ideas: students whose families experienced unusual hardship etc?

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:07 pm

marina wrote:

Because their descendant would probably STILL be citizens were it not for the holocaust.That is the way citizenship work. Being born in a country to citizen parents does confer citizenship.College admission does not. A grandparent attending a university is no guarantee of your acceptance.

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:09 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

So SAT scores and grades. Nothing else? Life experiences? Overcoming challenges? Interesting hobbies?

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:11 pm

leah233 wrote:

It's not a guarantee but every single school I know of is preferential towards legacy students. So they would get say 20 points automatically added on to their application. Why shouldn't descendants of Jews who would have been admitted get at least 10 points?

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:20 pm

So let's say my name is David. My grandfather and great grandfather wanted to apply but no Jews allowed so they didn't. I applied and am qualified - high scores and grades. My schoolmate Matthew has the same scores and grades, but his grandfather attended because he wasn't Jewish so Matthew has a 20 point lead and his application goes right away into the "accept" pile. Mine does not. I will be wait listed to see if there are any spots left after all the Matthews have been accepted.

Can you see why some consider this unjust?

leah233

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:20 pm

marina wrote:

You are asking about to many different scenarios and are going too far off topic.Therefore I will only repeat that Affirmative Action as currently on the books in the US is no morally better then any other form of comparable race based discrimination

Fox

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:24 pm

DrMom wrote:

Most of the world is quite aware of American political events. Americans, by contrast, tend to be more ignorant of the goings-on in other nations.

I don't want to stir up trouble (though it's preferable to cleaning my oven), but I have to respond to this.

All my life, I've heard people from all over the world make this generalization. Sometimes it's said in anger; sometimes it's said in a sweet, pleading way. But the more the world has flattened as a result of trade and technology, the more I believe it to be a gross oversimplification if not pure poppycock.

In fact, the very idea of "goings-on" in America is oversimplified. There are fifty separate states in the US, and many are far larger than most countries, either in population, land mass, economy, or all three. Each has its own "goings-on," including elections, public policy debates, and various problems. Most Americans' lives are impacted more in day-to-day life by whatever is happening in their state and local governments than they are by federal policy.

And all these people outside the U.S. carefully follow the vagueries of regional American politics and government? Not in my experience! When questioned with the slightest vigor, most of the people I've met over the years who claimed to be "aware" of U.S. life and current events really meant that (a) they've seen a lot of American sitcoms and movies; and (b) they know approximately 2-6 of the names in the American news at any given time, at least 3 of which are usually entertainment celebrities.

I will grant you that Israel is a bit different simply because many American-born Israelis have an interest in their former country. That's true, though, with any immigrant group. It's not necessarily unique.

I will also grant you that America has its percentage of yahoos, and their sheer numbers are daunting, though the actual percentage is probably no greater than the percentage of yahoos in Liechtenstein.

But just like donning a kimono and watching anime doesn't making me an expert on Japan, I'm worn out with people who think they understand America because they watched every episode of Friends and occasionally catch a clip of President Obama descending the Air Force One steps.

marina

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 2:26 pm

leah233 wrote:

My question actually is exactly on point because many schools afford points to students from low socio economic backgrounds and this happens to overlap a lot with race because poor people tend to be minorities.

Affirmative action is a complicated issue with many interesting facets. If you just want to boil it down to insisting it is unethical discrimination, I'm not sure what there is to talk about.