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Spinoff Rape Culture in Halacha/ Trigger Warning
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 4:57 pm
Re marrying her, the Chinuch explains it's supposed to act as a deterrent, that if the rapist would know he'll be tied down to his victim for the rest of his life, he'll refrain from committing the rape.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 5:43 pm
Seas wrote:
Re marrying her, the Chinuch explains it's supposed to act as a deterrent, that if the rapist would know he'll be tied down to his victim for the rest of his life, he'll refrain from committing the rape.


ok, but it might have the opposite effect, yes?
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 6:03 pm
Highly unlikely as rapists don't usually look for long term partners in their victims, only for quick gratification with no strings attached. On balance, knowing you'd have to marry your victim would be much more of a deterrent than an incentive.
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freedomseek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 9:03 pm
Lol, marina how you put this responsibility onto rav Huna....!
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 9:29 pm
Just FYI, here's the rambam on which people lose their share in the world to come: http://www.chabad.org/library/.....e.htm halachot 6-14.

Nice long list, including murderers, mosrim, apikorsim, slanderers, people who disrespect their teachers, etc., etc. Nothing abt rapists.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 9:33 pm
The next chapter lists people for whom the path to teshuva is closed or they are unlikely to repent or teshuva is extra hard. http://www.chabad.org/library/.....r.htm

Nothing about rapists.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 9:53 pm
Seas wrote:
Highly unlikely as rapists don't usually look for long term partners in their victims, only for quick gratification with no strings attached. On balance, knowing you'd have to marry your victim would be much more of a deterrent than an incentive.


If rapists aren't the long-term thinking kind, then it's difficult to argue that they are the kind of people who will be deterred by long-term consequences.
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Tablepoetry




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 10:08 pm
Seas wrote:
Re marrying her, the Chinuch explains it's supposed to act as a deterrent, that if the rapist would know he'll be tied down to his victim for the rest of his life, he'll refrain from committing the rape.


Actually in some tribes today it's a cheap way to get a wife. A man fancies a girl, she or her family are not interested, he kidnaps and rapes her and voila, everyone is insisting he marry her.
I dont recall which nation this was - some mountainous people maybe around Turkey or Kurdistan - but this method was gaining popularity. Why wouldnt it, if there is no other punishment for rape?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 25 2016, 11:04 pm
I listened to this audio recording on this topic http://www.yutorah.com/lecture.....mbam/

But did not find it particularly helpful. The speaker also sets up a either/or situation and then tries to explain why a fine is a better option than lashes, because in his understanding, you can only have one or the other. Some time is also spent comparing the rape halachos with those for general assault and comparing what happens when a person admits fault, but I didn't really understand what point that was supposed to clarify. One thing he said towards the end is that according to one opinion, rape was really a lesser form of assault because the purpose is not to cause pain, as it would be in other assaults, rather the purpose was to take pleasure. So it's not as bad, according to that opinion,as a regular assault.

I found this to be an interesting historical observation, but completely oblivious of the effect rape actually has on a woman. And that's not going into the entire discussion of rape as crime of power v lust.

Anyway, I didn't really find a lot of insight in that audio recording, but I'm posting here in case anyone else wants to hear it and maybe explain what I missed.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 5:29 am
marina wrote:
No. I don't know what the punishment is for these things and I don't have a cite from you abt the fines which apply to rape of non-virgins.

I'll try to find a source, but I'm pretty sure it's in the sources you already brought. There are multiple fines: for virginity, for causing physical pain, for causing physical injury (if applicable), and for causing humiliation/emotional distress. One of those only applies to virgins over age 3; the latter three apply in every case.

Quote:
As for the rapist who marries his victim, you can't have it both ways. You can't argue that rape is taken very seriously and punished severely and at the same time argue that it's not about the punishment, it's just about how he can compensate her.

But that's not what I'm saying! I've been saying over and over that "taken seriously" and "punished severely" are not the same thing. Halacha takes rape seriously by seeing it as serious damage to the victim, worthy of significant compensation.

This isn't unique to rape. If someone gouges another person's eyes out, or stabs them without killing them, the punishment is also compensation. Does the Torah not take eye-gouging seriously?

Maybe you really are arguing that the Torah doesn't take any violent crime short of murder seriously enough?

Quote:
You have said over and over here that the Torah is very clear on the punishment and it's a very serious crime, but I don't know what is the punishment other than compensation.

So when you say "the Torah isn't clear about the punishment for rape," what you mean is "paying compensation doesn't count as a punishment"?

What does count as a punishment, in your books? Only if there's physical pain inflicted? Only if the rapist is locked away from society? Is "paying a fine" never a serious punishment, or does it pass that threshold at some point - eg, a million dollar fine?

Quote:
1. You actually can make an exception and say: rape is so bad that yes, you get lashes and you have to pay a fine too.

I don't understand your point. That's not the situation for any crime at all. Not murder, not setting someone on fire, not forcing a miscarriage, not... etc. I can understanding wanting rape to be different (because rape is generally viewed, today, as a special kind of evil), but rape not being dealt with under a completely different set of rules doesn't mean it's viewed as *less* serious than other crimes.

Or are you saying that anything short of viewing rape as more evil than other violent crimes is excusing rape?

Quote:
2.You can have the guy get lashes and and the woman doesn't get any money for losing her virginity but it's okay because she is still considered a virgin since it was rape and not relations.

And what about the money she's supposed to get for pain and suffering?

Why do you assume lashes is a more severe punishment than paying a fine? Or that it implies taking a crime more seriously?

Quote:
3. Easiest one: you can have the woman get a fine and the guy doesn't get lashes but at least you have Rav Huna who says "He who takes a woman by force, forfeits his world to come." Or "He who takes a woman by force meets an untimely death" or "God hates rapists they are an abomination to Him" or " Do not rape, sayeth the Lord Your God, for this is an evil sin,"

None of these exist.

You want Rav Huna, specifically?

Certainly there are quotes from rabbis condemning rape. It only took me ten seconds on google just now to find links to a rabbi calling rapists "animals who act as if there is no Judge and no Judgement." Want me to find more?

Part of the issue is that until very recently, consent didn't make things OK. The "as long as it's between two consenting adults, it's fine" mentality is recent. Back in Rav Huna's day, it would have been strange to talk about how forcing a woman to have s-x was terrible, when having consensual s-x with that same woman would also be terrible.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:32 am
Quote:
I'll try to find a source, but I'm pretty sure it's in the sources you already brought. There are multiple fines: for virginity, for causing physical pain, for causing physical injury (if applicable), and for causing humiliation/emotional distress. One of those only applies to virgins over age 3; the latter three apply in every case.


I think we are getting somewhere, so I will address each point separately.

These chapters apply exclusively to a girl who is a virgin when she was raped or seduced. That is why one of the first rules ( maybe 8?) clarifies who doesn't get a fine because they are not virgins, ex a convert over three. I do not know of a source for a fine for one who rapes a non virgin.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:39 am
Quote:
So when you say "the Torah isn't clear about the punishment for rape," what you mean is "paying compensation doesn't count as a punishment"?


Yes. I think that compensation, without explicit forceful condemnation, is not enough.

Reuven whose ox damages Shimon's property pays a fine. A fine does not imply a moral failing. Just that you owe someone money for whatever happened- whether you raped them or your ox messes up their field.

Please note that I am not even looking for a physical punishment here, although I think lashes would be good. FYI you get lashes and karet for sleeping with a niddah I think. But whatever - I would appreciate a strong statement of spefically how evil rape is and how God will take care of that person, even if not by the rabbonim' hands.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:41 am
Quote:

And what about the money she's supposed to get for pain and suffering


Again, saying that the rapist only gets one or the other sets up a choice that theoretically we don't need to have. It wouldn't be that outrageous to create an exception for rape and to have the perpetrator both pay a fine and get lashes. Exceptions are made all the time in the law.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:45 am
Quote:
You want Rav Huna, specifically?

Certainly there are quotes from rabbis condemning rape. It only took me ten seconds on google just now to find links to a rabbi calling rapists "animals who act as if there is no Judge and no Judgement." Want me to find more?


I understand how Rabbis view rape in 2016. I think we all do. This is about the Gemara and the rambam and a bit of the shulchan aruch, because again I'm assuming that we are looking at this as relevant to our times -that these rules are relevant to modern day society -and not just an interesting piece of historical trivia.

So I don't need Rav Huna:) Rava would be fine too.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:46 am
marina -
I feel like this turned from a series of questions (that I more or less did know the answers to) into a debate (and I have very little idea what the debate is supposed to be about).

So some questions to clarify, if you don't mind.

How are you defining "punishment"?

What about "taking [X crime] seriously," how do you define that? For example, to take rape seriously, would a society have to punish rape more seriously than other violent crimes? Or equally seriously? Or equally seriously to specific crimes - eg, the same punishment as murder? Or is there a minimum standard, and beyond that it doesn't matter how other crimes are punished - eg it would be OK if rape were the only crime that wasn't a death penalty offense, as long as the punishment for rape were at least 100 lashes?

Do you think that "restorative justice" is ever adequate? Or are you saying that all crimes need punishment, and punishment should include an element of revenge? (ie, should cause the offender to suffer in a way that has nothing to do with compensating the victim). And if so, why? For deterrence? Or just because it's the right thing to do?

Do you think that paying a fine could ever be more painful to someone than going to prison? or than corporal punishment?

You seem to be saying that if someone denounces the different elements of rape, but not rape as such, that's not a real denunciation - am I understanding right? Eg saying "any person who is violent to another person is evil" - not a condemnation of rape, by your definition?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:56 am
ora_43 wrote:
Certainly there are quotes from rabbis condemning rape. It only took me ten seconds on google just now to find links to a rabbi calling rapists "animals who act as if there is no Judge and no Judgement." Want me to find more?

I think that could contribute to the discussion. Who is the rabbi you quoted? I searched for the quoted phrase (with quotes) and only found this thread.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 6:59 am
Quote:
Part of the issue is that until very recently, consent didn't make things OK. The "as long as it's between two consenting adults, it's fine" mentality is recent. Back in Rav Huna's day, it would have been strange to talk about how forcing a woman to have s-x was terrible, when having consensual s-x with that same woman would also be terrible.


I think this is the crucial point here. Consent is not an concept in Halacha so rape doesn't get its own special category- it is just an assault. Exception is for when the family's honor is at stake, such as when a virgin is raped.

And like every assault, this type of assault is condemned only to the extent of physical harm caused. So if he bruises her, leaves marks, and so on, then the assault would be a beating but if he just came and went- that would not be assault at all.

The rambam here does distinguish between rape and seduction and the rapist pays an extra fine for pain- but that is not- I think- the psychological pain of rape. I think the rambam is just talking about the tearing of the hymen and for some reason he thinks this is painful only when a virgin is raped, not seduced.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:03 am
In other words, there is no concept of rape as a separate category that causes psychological damage. Rape is only a problem when there is physical damage like a torn va-gina or when the family's honor is at stake.

So a non-virgin: if she is raped and there are no physical marks, I posit, there would be no moral condemnation for the rape and no fine at all. Like if you shove someone, but don't leave a mark. There would be a general "don't sleep around" but that has nothing to do with rape.


Last edited by marina on Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:09 am
ora_43 wrote:
marina -
I feel like this turned from a series of questions (that I more or less did know the answers to) into a debate (and I have very little idea what the debate is supposed to be about).

So some questions to clarify, if you don't mind.

How are you defining "punishment"?

What about "taking [X crime] seriously," how do you define that? For example, to take rape seriously, would a society have to punish rape more seriously than other violent crimes? Or equally seriously? Or equally seriously to specific crimes - eg, the same punishment as murder? Or is there a minimum standard, and beyond that it doesn't matter how other crimes are punished - eg it would be OK if rape were the only crime that wasn't a death penalty offense, as long as the punishment for rape were at least 100 lashes?

Do you think that "restorative justice" is ever adequate? Or are you saying that all crimes need punishment, and punishment should include an element of revenge? (ie, should cause the offender to suffer in a way that has nothing to do with compensating the victim). And if so, why? For deterrence? Or just because it's the right thing to do?

Do you think that paying a fine could ever be more painful to someone than going to prison? or than corporal punishment?

You seem to be saying that if someone denounces the different elements of rape, but not rape as such, that's not a real denunciation - am I understanding right? Eg saying "any person who is violent to another person is evil" - not a condemnation of rape, by your definition?


None of this is really at stake here. I just want a serious moral condemnation of the act of taking a woman by force, as separate from the shidduch- damages to a virgin and as separate from a plain vanilla assault.

Whether there is an actual physical punishment reflecting this moral condemnation or just a sharp statement from Rav Huna- I don't really care at this point.

In other words, I'm looking for an acknowledgment of rape as a psychologically harmful crime above and beyond torn body parts, if any, or family honor and virgin market value.

For the above reasons, I don't think this exists. And then the question becomes- again- of what value is this system to us nowadays, when rape is acknowledged to be its own separate category which may cause severe paychological harm? Is this all just a history lesson? Or are we - as a society - not supposed to consider rape psychologically damaging? are we supposed to view it as a simple assault depending on the physical bruising?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:19 am
If you can find something showing that a non virgin who is raped gets a fine just for the rape, separate from physical
damages, if any, that would weaken my supposition.
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