Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?

HindaRochel

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 1:23 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

on! I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was that there are some pesukim that only deal with that particular place and time. I never said that it is a general rule. If so, then I'd obviously hold that the mitzvos don't apply -- and clearly I don't hold that way.

But it is indisputable that there *are* portions of the Torah that had applicability for their particular time and place. A prime example are the portions that deal with the miluim -- the inauguration of the Mishkan. These rituals were carried out at that time and then never again. And I posited that the word "hayom" in the pasuk that you quoted could possibly have the same limited application.
But don't expand my position to something that I never said or implied.

Tammy, do you really think there is even a remote possibility that the statement of Hashem hu ho'Elokim concerning which it says V'yadaata hayOM has a limited application to that or any particular time?!!

In any case V'yadaata HaYom means something much more profound, and impossible to consider time-limited, as indeed the 6 mitzvos temidiyos are not: It means it should be CLEAR TO YOU AS DAY that Hashem hu ho'elokim. Which brings us back to the point that Knowing that Hashem exists,is one thing, and knowing that that Hashem, hu -He is - ho'elokim is quite another. Both are a matter of knowing, as clearly as it is clear to you that is is day.

Know as intense belief. NOT as proof similar to 1+1=2

poelmamosh

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 1:30 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

Tell me how you *know* what you know.

Tammy

I *know* Hashem exists because I learn Chassidus. The Alter Rebbe, author of the Tanya posits that this is a prime reason for learning Chassidus. Others on this forum might have other answers to this question.

I've been out of this discussion for awhile (I usually stop reading threads that grow beyond a few pages) so I might be missing something, but in response to your latest post about Matan Torah:
There are always numerous acccounts of the same historic event; a function of historians is to sift through a lot of circumstantial data culled from many sources and come up with a comprehensive account (and I believe that is a form of science, BTW)
Actually, there's an anecdote about the philosopher Sir Bacon who decided to write about history to be a true, well-rounded scholar (he was a Renaissance man). In going about this task, he hears a commotion outside, so he goes to see what happened. He recieves about 5 different accounts from eyewitnesses as to what just occurred. He changed his mind about writing history LOL

Anyway, the point is... there is enough that is similar and unchanged about the accounts and transmission of Matan Torah to constitute it as historical proof in the eyes of great Jewish philosophers of past generations. It's enough for me, too.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:01 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Obviously, I do.

And before you start putting words in my mouth again, that's not to say that I think that HaShem was God only on that day but not now or any other silly notion like that.

Furthermore, the Rambam brings the source of the mitzvah not from this pasuk but from the pasuk of Anochi HaShem Elokecha. In addition, as you pointed out, Rashi felt the need to point out in another place that Hayom means not only today, but he felt no such need here -- there *is* no Rashi on the matter.

So, yes, I am comfortable in saying that the Pasuk applies specifically to the address that Moshe was giving Klal Yisrael at that moment.

Quote:

In any case V'yadaata HaYom means something much more profound, and impossible to consider time-limited, as indeed the 6 mitzvos temidiyos are not:

Yes, but the source of the mitzvah is not from this pasuk.

Tammy

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:10 pm

Quote:

The RamBam tells how, but that's a Torah source. Smile

`Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, hlacha 6. "and the knowledge of this thing is a positive commandment, as it says: I am the L-rd your G-d. in the commentary : I am Hashem the mechuyav hametzius - (that which must exist by definition and logic) and therefore - I am also your G-d, and it is enumbent upon you to know/recognize my G-dliness and serve me".

Halacha 10: What did Moshe Rabbenu wish to understand when he said "Show me Your Glory?" - He wished to know the true existence of HKBH until it would be KNOWN in his heart, as with knowledge of one of the people that he saw his face, and his visage was engraved in his heart, that this person would stand out in his mind from the rest of men - thus Moshe Rabbenu requested that the Existence of Hakadosh BH would stand out in his heart from the rest of the existences of all entities., until he would know the truth of His existence as it is."

The way to KNOW Hashem is to study about Hashem, to learn about His greatness etc.

Chapter 2. Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah

Halacha 1: It is a mitzvah to love and fear this Honored and Awesome G-d as it says "Thou shalt love Hashem your G-d" and "Hashem your G-d, thou shalt fear"
H2: What is the way to Love and fear Him? When a person will meditate upon His deeds and wondrous and great creations he will see His wisdom which has no estimation or bounds - he will immediately love and praise and beautify and desire with a great desire to KNOW the great Hashem, as Dovid said " My soul thirsts for G-d, the Living Almighty"

And when he considers these very words- he immediately jumps backward and fears and is afraid and knows that he is a little, dark,and lowly creture, standing with feeble mind before He who is the Ultimate of Intelligence, as Dovid said" When I see Your heavens, the work of Your fingers... what is Man that You should remember him", and according to these words, I will explain great clauses from the works of the Master of all Worlds, in order that it should be an introduction for the one who understands to love Hashem, as the chachomim have said concerning ahava: "Through this - reflection, and concentration in Hashem's Torah and Mitzvos- you become acquainted with/recognize He who spoke and the world was cresated.(mi she'omar v'haya ha'olam).

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 2:18 pm

Quote:

Obviously, I do.

And before you start putting words in my mouth again, that's not to say that I think that HaShem was God only on that day but not now or any other silly notion like that

The above two sentences are contradictory.

Quote:

Furthermore, the Rambam brings the source of the mitzvah not from this pasuk but from the pasuk of Anochi HaShem Elokecha. In addition, as you pointed out, Rashi felt the need to point out in another place that Hayom means not only today, but he felt no such need here -- there *is* no Rashi on the matter.

So, yes, I am comfortable in saying that the Pasuk applies specifically to the address that Moshe was giving Klal Yisrael at that moment.

So you are mistaken about there being no Rashi on this passsuk. Rashi has no need to reiterate that which he said previously. Once he explained a concept or word, it is understood, and the ben chamesh l'mikrah doesn't need to ask the same question again.

Quote:

Yes, but the source of the mitzvah is not from this pasuk.

which mitzvah do you refer to? leidah es Hashem? And so? Does that mean that the other passuk has nothing to tell us?

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:00 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

Obviously, I do.

And before you start putting words in my mouth again, that's not to say that I think that HaShem was God only on that day but not now or any other silly notion like that

The above two sentences are contradictory.

No, they aren't.

I can maintain that I believe that God still exists (even if I don't have any absolute proof for it) and yet He told the people of the Dor HaMidbar that they do have to *know* He exists, simply because they had overwhelming proof (inlcuding a direct revelation) that He exists.

Quote:

So, then, is it your position that every time it says "Hayom" in Tanach that it has to refer to everyday and not just that day?

Quote:

Yes, but the source of the mitzvah is not from this pasuk.

which mitzvah do you refer to? leidah es Hashem? And so? Does that mean that the other passuk has nothing to tell us?

Of course it has things to teach us. But you're using that pasuk as the basis for the mitzvah, and that, on that basis, since I don't maintain that Hayom means "everyday" and that I am in violation of a mitzvah because of it. I'm telling you that it's not the source and, as such, I am not in violation because Hayom means "everyday."

Tammy

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:14 pm

Quote:

The first place that Rashi mentions that today means literally TODAY, that is every day, whenever we are reading this, in connection with Matan Torah, is in Yisro, where it says "Bayom hazeh bo'u midbar Sinai". On THIS day, they came to Midbar Sinai. "it should have said only bayom hahu, what is the meaning of bayom hazeh? that the words of Torah shoulde be new for you as though today they were given.".

so, in accordance with Rashi's policy, he doesn't have to repeat it at every applicable place, it's quite understood!

However, in several places, Rashi does bring similar comments as in HaYom in Kerias Shema, "asher Anochi metzavecha HaYom al l'vovecha" Rashi says it should be like a new ordinance (dyotagma) that all run toward excitedly, not like an antiquated ordinance that a person doesn't pay attention to, dyutagma: written edict of the king.

that's not a contradiction to the above policy, because it brings out a different point even if similar, that the pshat wouldn't be understood without.

However, the meaning of "clear as day" is not from Rashi, IIRC but other meforshim, and is also brought down in Chassidus.

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:18 pm

tzenarena wrote:

The above two sentences are contradictory.

Tammy wrote:

Why does Hashem need to tell the people of Dor hamidbar, when they saw eveything directly? Are you be surprised that it's NOT only to the Dor Hamidbar that the Torah is adressed? And even to maintain such a contrary statement, you would have to put it back into its context, that of Bnei Yisroel being charged with the task of transmitting it to their children and all GENERATIONS to come that which they saw with their own eyes, how Hashem gave us the Torah, and to continue to uphold it's teachings . (VaEschanon 4:9, 10 )

Tammy wrote:

I don't know what your trying to say with this pilpul. Scratching Head

If the RamBam says that Anochi Hashem Elokecha obligates us to learn and know about Hashem, therefore that means that the RamBam doesn't "hold" that the word "Hayom" teaches us what it does, and you are not "obligated" to believe that the Torah is adressed to all generations? Rolling Eyes

Or that in our knowledge and belief in Hashem there are no details or branches , or explanations other than the verse which the commandment is based on?

That is quite clearly not the case, as in many many mitzvos, details, parts, angles etc. are brought from a variety of pesukim, and they all are part of the greater mitzvah.

For example in the mitzvah of Gemilus Chesed, there are many branches, as Bikur cholim, hachnasa Kallah, gemilus chesed, halvoyas hames, etc. Each one does not have it's own "account" in the 613, they are all under the "umbrella" of V'ahavta l'reiacha Komocha, the verse that is the source of the mitzvah.

In the Gemara, you will find many halachos of Shabbos in mesichtos other than Maseches Shabbos.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 3:40 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

The Torah disagrees with you. The pasuk says
וידעת היום והשבות אל לבבך כי ד' הוא א' בשמים ממעל...
And you shall KNOW today ... that Hashem is G-d in the heavens above and the earth beneath. There is no other.

We have an obligation to KNOW about G-d's existence, not just to believe.

Why do you have to go back as far as the Rambam? I brought this pasuk a few pages ago! (This isn't for Tammy, who thinks there are pesukim in the Torah which were only for that generation, and don't apply to us - it's for the rest of the posters in the discussion).

Hold on! I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

But you said this (page 4):

Quote:

How do you know that? There are parts of the Torah that are meant for only a specific time and place and then have no practical applicability beyond that scope. How do you know that this isn't one of those places?

So I wasn't putting words into your mouth??

Quote:

What I said was that there are some pesukim that only deal with that particular place and time. I never said that it is a general rule. If so, then I'd obviously hold that the mitzvos don't apply -- and clearly I don't hold that way.

Why do you think some things are described at length in the Torah and some in great brevity? Why is a sefer Torah lacking even one word pasul?
Because every word, letter and crown in the Torah is holy. If you learned Midrashim, commentators etc you would see that strings of halachos are derived from a word or sentence. Chas v'shalom that there is even one letter in the Torah that doesn't apply to us today.

Quote:

But it is indisputable that there *are* portions of the Torah that had applicability for their particular time and place. A prime example are the portions that deal with the miluim -- the inauguration of the Mishkan. These rituals were carried out at that time and then never again. And I posited that the word "hayom" in the pasuk that you quoted could possibly have the same limited application.

So why do you think Hashem wrote them in the Torah? If you look at the Midrashim (Torah she'ba'al peh) you will see that we learn all kinds of things from the gifts they brought, from the fact that all the nesiim brought the same gift but with different intent etc etc.

Quote:

But don't expand my position to something that I never said or implied.

I'll let everyone else refer back to page 4 and be the judge.

Quote:

ספר החינוך מצוות כה:
להאמין שיש לעולם א-לה אחד, שהמציא כל הנמצא ומכחו וחפצו היה כל מה שהוא ושהיה ושיהיה עדי עד, וכי הוא הוציאנו מארץ מצרים ונתן לנו את התורה. שנ' בתחילת נתינת התורה "אנכי ד' א' אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים'" וגו'. ופרושו כאילו אמר: תדעו ותאמינו שיש לעולם א-לה, כי מלת "אנכי" תורה על המציאות. ואשר אמר "אשר הוצאתיך" וכו' לומר . שלא יפתה לבבכם לקחת ענין צאתכם מעבדות מצרים ומכות מצרים דרך מקרה, אלא דעו, שאנכי הוצאתי אתכם בחפץ ובהשגחה, כמו שהבטיח לאבתינו אברהם יצחק ויעקב.
...
ואם יזכה לעלות במעלות החכמה ולבבו יבין ובעיניו יראה במופת נחתך, שהאמנה הזאת שהאמין אמת וברור,אי אפשר להיות דבר בלתי זה, אז יקים מצות עשה זה מצוה מן המבחר....

Quote:

Sefer haChinuch Mitzva 25
To believe that the world has one G-d, who created everything and everything came into being through His wish, and He was and will be forever, and that He took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah. As it says at the beginning of the giving of the Torah "I am the L-rd, your G-d who took you out of the land of Egypt..." and the explanation is as if it says that you should know and believe that the world has a G-d, since the word "I" shows the reality. And it says "who took you out..." to say that your heart shouldn't be tempted to take the exodus from slavery in Egypt and the plagues in Egypt as if they were random, but know - that I took you out of Egypt willingly and with Divine Providence, as He promised our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....

and if he merits climbing the rungs of wisdom, and his heart understands, and his eyes will see the wonders, that the belief he believes is true and clear, nothing else is possible, then he will fulfil this positive mitzva in the best possible way..."

(my translation)

So Tammy and HindaRochel, I am still waiting for your sources to back you up against all these pesukim and rishonim.
Until then we can only daven that you merit climbing the rungs of wisdom...

There is nothing to dispute. I don't need a Torah source to tell me that you can't command someone to know something. Tell me how you *can* command someone to know something. Tell me how you *know* what you know.

Tammy[/quote]

We are still waiting for your Torah source that there is no command to 'know'. So far we've brought the Rambam and the Chinuch that there IS a mitzva to know (apart of course from an actual pasuk - but chaval al hazman b/c if we bring a pasuk you just tell us it doesn't apply today) . I have no doubt that there are plenty of other sources.

BTW, did you ever notice that the Torah commands us to love and to hate, to believe things and disbelieve them etc etc. Just because you have not reached the level of bringing your feelings into check with the halacha doesn't mean its impossible.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 4:46 pm

shalhevet wrote:

BTW, did you ever notice that the Torah commands us to love and to hate, to believe things and disbelieve them etc etc. Just because you have not reached the level of bringing your feelings into check with the halacha doesn't mean its impossible.

Of course there is a commandment to love God "bchol L'vavcha." But you know what -- we're human beings -- and as human beings, I don't think it's possible to literally love God with *all* your heart either -- we all have egos and feelings. If God were to ask one of us to do something totally repugnant to us (sacrifice a child, for example), could you tell me that you wouldn't question it for a single moment, you wouldn't have any feelings whatsoever other than "this is what God commanded, so I'm going to do it?" Can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't have any second thoughts, any qualms about it, any feelings for the act that you are commanded to do? Can you honestly tell me that if you were to do it that you wouldn't have *any* regrets afterwards, any feelings of remorse or pity or even anger?

Because if you have *any* of those feelings, then your love for God is less than 100%. If it's truly "bchol l'vav'cha," then there can be no room for doubt, no room for any other feelings whatsoever.

I think that I view the commandment to know HaShem in the same way. He knows that we are human beings; that we are fallible and cannot attain perfection. He knows that and does not ask of us more than we are capable of. If we are commanded to know that HaShem exists, then we do so to the best of our abilities. If you're a tzadik who knows that He exists without any doubts whatsoever, then all the more power to you. If you can love God that you can do anything He asks of you with absolutely no reservations and no feelings to the contrary -- again, all the more power to you. But for the rest of us who are only human, we simply do our best.

I do my best to know that HaShem exists in the world. If I don't know it 100%, then I simply do my best -- and He knows that it is my best.

Tammy

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:19 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

If there is a mitzva in the Torah, it means that every Jewish boy of 13 or girl of 12 is capable of doing the mitzva.

Of course we have to do our best. But doing our best does not mean standing still and saying

Quote:

He knows that and does not ask of us more than we are capable of.

because if He gave us such a mitzva then every single Jew is capable of fulfilling it. It might mean learning more or making more of an effort. Maybe it even means going to read seforim of holy rishonim with the intention of listening to them to help us find the correct path, rather than mocking them and arguing with their ways of getting closer to Hashem which have stood the tests of time.
You don't KNOW that Hashem exists? Go and read the Rambam and find out how to get to that level!

This mitzva is not just for tzaddikim - that is just the yetzer horo telling us to give up instead of make an effort.

When a father got blown up in Yerushalayim 6 years ago, he fulfilled the mitzva of v'ahavta in all its glory and called to his 4 year old son to say Shema with him as the last thing they did in this world.

Just last summer a gibbor - a real Jewish hero - jumped on a grenade to save his comrades and cried out shema as his last words.

Hashem Yikom Damam.

May they be our inspiration to live al kiddush Hashem, yes to love Hashem b'chol levaveinu, with all our hearts.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:22 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

I do my best to know that HaShem exists in the world. If I don't know it 100%, then I simply do my best -- and He knows that it is my best.

Tammy

Sometimes, we may be deluding ourselves that we are doing our "best". If we make the investment of time, energy and emotion to learn, study, meditate, and think then we aren't doing our best.

Same for Ahavas Hashem and Yiraas Hashem , if we don't learn the things that bring us to have the feelings, then we aren't following the commandment to the best of our ability.

That's why it's important to learn the things that lead up to this, and as poel mammosh posted, why we learn Chassidus. (those who do.)

That's right. Sometimes we may be deluding ourselves. And other times we may *actually* be doing our best.

I have a policy with my kids. If they come home with a 50 on a test, but I know that they put their hearts and souls into it and did their absolute best, then I have no complaints. I don't ask them to do things that are beyond them. But if they get a 90 and I know they could have easily done better, then I let them know as well.

I push my kids to do their absolute level best. But I also recognize that they are individuals with strengths and weaknesses -- and while DH and I work on strengthening their weaknesses, we also recognize that they *do* have their limits. We encourage them to try to extend them as much as possible, but sometimes some people are just not as good in some subjects as others. Sometimes they do really try their best and come home with a 50.

Same thing here. Sometimes we do delude ourselves into thinking we're doing our best. You'll get no argument from me on the matter. But there are also times that we are doing our absolute best.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:27 pm

shalhevet wrote:

If there is a mitzva in the Torah, it means that every Jewish boy of 13 or girl of 12 is capable of doing the mitzva.

Obviously not. My brother will never be able to do the mitzvah of Yibum. Ever. He never had a brother and never will.

My sons will never perform the avoda and the surrounding mitzvos. Ever.

Many times people find themselves in circumstances in which observance of the mitzvos are difficult or impossible.

Quote:

Of course we have to do our best. But doing our best does not mean standing still and saying

Quote:

He knows that and does not ask of us more than we are capable of.

Of course one should always strive to improve oneself. But telling me "read the Rambam" as if that's supposed to wipe away every doubt that I have is naive and foolish. What if I read the Rambam (as I have) and I'm still not 100% convinced? Should I then just shut off my mind and pretend that my objections don't matter? Should I just pretend to myself that the Kuzari proof is 100% logically valid even when I know it's not?

I'm always looking for ways to improve my emunah. But I can't do it if it requires me to shut off my brain.

Tammy