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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Pesach
How are there gentiles after the splitting of the sea?
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 7:59 pm
I've always been bothered by this question. I've heard heard some answers but non that I felt really answered the question. How were there any gentiles left after the tremendous miracle of hashem splitting the yam suf. Why didn't the gentiles convert? The same question applies to matan torah. How is it that after hashem literally spoke to us at the har Sinia, only Yisro was impressed enough to convert.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:08 pm
Free choice. If god made it that everything was so completely miraculous that ppl wouldn't have any choice but to convert then that would remove our free choice and that is one of the core things of our religion
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:12 pm
Many gentiles believe that we were the chosen ones up until Yoshkie. Yoshkie told them they don't have to keep the mitzvos as long as they accept him as the Messiah.

It's a really convenient religion because you don't have to keep anything and still be considered religious.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:17 pm
amother wrote:
I've always been bothered by this question. I've heard heard some answers but non that I felt really answered the question. How were there any gentiles left after the tremendous miracle of hashem splitting the yam suf. Why didn't the gentiles convert? The same question applies to matan torah. How is it that after hashem literally spoke to us at the har Sinia, only Yisro was impressed enough to convert.


Ask about your own people first. How did the Jews literally worship a COW MADE OUT OF GOLD as a deity a month and a half after they got the Torah? And over and over again in the midbar?


Last edited by marina on Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:17 pm
amother wrote:

It's a really convenient religion because you don't have to keep anything and still be considered religious.


That is extremely ignorant and has no bearing to OP's question
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:21 pm
singleagain wrote:
That is extremely ignorant and has no bearing to OP's question


I have friends who are gentiles. shock They have told me they consider themselves religious because they go to church once a week. They have one family dinner a year for each holiday. That's the extent of their religion. They can go anyplace on sundays and do anything. How is that ignorant?

As a side point, they do believe that the Holocaust happened to us for not accepting Yoshkie.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:25 pm
amother wrote:
Many gentiles believe that we were the chosen ones up until Yoshkie. Yoshkie told them they don't have to keep the mitzvos as long as they accept him as the Messiah.

It's a really convenient religion because you don't have to keep anything and still be considered religious.


Christianity is a little more complicated than that. It arose, in part, as a response to the hyperfocus of keeping the details of the mitzvos but without much emotion. The point of Christianity was to bring the feeling back to the religion... similar in some ways to the rise of chassidim, although with obvious differences.

And many Christian people and other gentiles have many observances and even more restrictions than we do.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:25 pm
amother wrote:
I have friends who are gentiles. shock They have told me they consider themselves religious because they go to church once a week. They have one family dinner a year for each holiday. That's the extent of their religion. They can go anyplace on sundays and do anything. How is that ignorant?

As a side point, they do believe that the Holocaust happened to us for not accepting Yoshkie.


My best friend is a practicing Southern Baptist and I know she would probably be really insulted by what you posted.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:27 pm
amother wrote:
I have friends who are gentiles. shock They have told me they consider themselves religious because they go to church once a week. They have one family dinner a year for each holiday. That's the extent of their religion. They can go anyplace on sundays and do anything. How is that ignorant?

As a side point, they do believe that the Holocaust happened to us for not accepting Yoshkie.


I dk if you know but there are some Jews who consider themselves religious because they go to a seder and fast on YK. Then there are Jews who look at those Jews and are appalled that they would even call themselves religious.


Everyone can consider themselves whatever they'd like and those to the right can look down on them and those to the left can scoff at them. And the world keeps on spinning.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:29 pm
My Catholic friends are an extremely spiritual family. When I was visiting them I was struck by how ascetic they are and how they seem to be above material concerns. Judaism is so earthy in comparison.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:44 pm
I assume the OP is referring the gentiles who lives at the time of the splitting on yam suf, not gentiles (such as Catholics) who came into being centuries later.

To which I would say: How would they even hear about it? It's not like there was TV news or internet back then. Maybe they hear some stories later on, but they would have no way of knowing how exaggerated the story was by the time they heard it.

Also, what would they convert to? There was no Jewish religion at the time per se -- they were a tribe of Hebrews who still didn't receive Torah. Seems it was more of an ethnic group than a religion. It may not be so obvious how one becomes a member of such a group.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 8:50 pm
DrMom wrote:
I assume the OP is referring the gentiles who lives at the time of the splitting on yam suf, not gentiles (such as Catholics) who came into being centuries later.

To which I would say: How would they even hear about it? It's not like there was TV news or internet back then. Maybe they hear some stories later on, but they would have no way of knowing how exaggerated the story was by the time they heard it.

Also, what would they convert to? There was no Jewish religion at the time per se -- they were a tribe of Hebrews who still didn't receive Torah. Seems it was more of an ethnic group than a religion. It may not be so obvious how one becomes a member of such a group.


I think there are a gazillion medrashim about how the whole earth was silent when God gave the Torah or how every body of water split during yam suf, etc. That's prob where OP is coming from.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 9:05 pm
Op have you ever went to an inspiring speech and left on a high with plans of how to do better.... And then been back to where you were by the next day?

Same thing.

Also it could be I'm totally remembering incorrectly.... But I think I remember learning that yisro did not in fact convert but did join beni Yisroel for mattan Torah, give Moshe his advice re mishpatim and then go back to where he came from to keep the mitzvos beni noach. Could be I'm totally mixing it up with something else of course.
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5mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 9:57 pm
marina wrote:
Ask about your own people first. How did the Jews literally worship a COW MADE OUT OF GOLD as a deity a month and a half after they got the Torah? And over and over again in the midbar?


This.

Actually, it was a matter of three days before the Jews were complaining about the lack of water. How could they have just seen the splitting of the sea and three days later have so little faith? Spiritual highs don't necessarily make a lasting impression.

And if it didn't work for the Jews, kal vachomer for other nations.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 10:37 pm
marina wrote:
I think there are a gazillion medrashim about how the whole earth was silent when God gave the Torah or how every body of water split during yam suf, etc. That's prob where OP is coming from.

Yeah, I know. But they are midrashim...
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 10:41 pm
Many people at that time and soon afterwards had heard of and been in awe of "the G-d of the Hebrews," but that doesn't necessarily mean they joined the Hebrew Nation. I think in those days, people thought that each Am had its own diety/dieties, and just because another people had a kick-@ss diety, doesn't mean you could willingly abandon your people and join another Am.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 26 2016, 11:26 pm
5mom wrote:
This.

Actually, it was a matter of three days before the Jews were complaining about the lack of water. How could they have just seen the splitting of the sea and three days later have so little faith? Spiritual highs don't nenecessarily make a lasting impression. And if it didn't work for the Jews, kal vachomer for other nations.


On the one hand.
But on the other hand, if you try to put yourself in their place you might be thinking "Well, what does G-d - the one who abandoned us in servitude in Egypt for several hundred years- have planned for us now?. To what extent will he be taking care of us now? Does he care about our mundane physical needs too?"
Their acquaintance with G-d as one involved with their fate was still very fresh and they probably had not fully yet processed the events of the previous days. Hashem understood this and for this reason there was no punishment at Marah.
As for the golden calf - it's not straighforward that what motivated them was a lack of belief in G-d per se but rather a misunderstanding of His lack of corporeality and of the proper way in which he should be worshipped.
They might have left Egypt but the Egyptian cultic rites and mentality was still their major frame of religious reference.
As for the other nations - I agree with Dr. Mom.
It was an era of national deities. Who you worshipped was part of your culture, your national identity. And news did not travel fast.
Eventually word of the Hebrew's powerful god did filter through to other nations - we see this in the story of Rachab and the meraglim. But it took time and the news did not necessarily make people feel impelled to do anything to appease this powerful god, much less to abandon their own culture and beliefs and start worshipping a foreign deity.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 12:24 am
amother wrote:
I've always been bothered by this question. I've heard heard some answers but non that I felt really answered the question. How were there any gentiles left after the tremendous miracle of hashem splitting the yam suf. Why didn't the gentiles convert? The same question applies to matan torah. How is it that after hashem literally spoke to us at the har Sinia, only Yisro was impressed enough to convert.


I think that the famous midrash about Hashem 'offering' His Torah to the other nations, and their refusal- each because of a basic prohibition that contradicted their way of life - hints at chazal's answer to this question that perplexed them too.
The other nations, at that moment in time, were simply not ready to accept the Torah and abide by its laws and Hashem realized that. The Torah is ultimately intended for all humanity but until universal acceptance of the Torah is feasible , Am Yisrael, alone among the nations, is supposed to be an Am Segula - to model Torah behavior and values as an example for the rest of the world.
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esther09




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 4:20 am
First of all, unless there is some Midrash I don't know about, not all Gentiles were at the splitting of the sea, wasn't it only Paroah and his army? Communication wasn't like it is now, most people probably didn't know or believe it happened.

Also, I think that question is similar to, "how are there still Jews after the holocaust/pogroms/inquisition...etc." also, If Christianity actually happened the way it did (we obviously don't believe he was resurrected from the dead but they do!) they probably ask the same question about how is it that WE don't believe in their religion. I think there's an element of faith and willingness to believe in what you want to believe in all of the above situations.

Also, what about the fact that the Egyptians weren't that impressed by plagues because they have magicians (!!) than could do similar things. Different times... LOL
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 27 2016, 5:23 am
sequoia wrote:
My Catholic friends are an extremely spiritual family. When I was visiting them I was struck by how ascetic they are and how they seem to be above material concerns. Judaism is so earthy in comparison.


And that earthiness, synthesizing the physical and the spiritual, is profoundly appealing to many people who haven't been exposed to it. I've heard that for gentiles, this kind of synthesis is very difficult and their spirituality tends toward the ascetic.

Of course, there are also ascetic Jews, above material concerns. Think of the Chassidic (and other) leaders who wouldn't go to sleep if they had a coin left in their home. Or Rebbetzin Kramer (Holy Woman). We have the concept of pachim ketanim, the small vessels Yaakov went back for that fateful night. On an ideal level, we would be so focused that any purchase we make would be well thought-out, and intended to be used to help us in our mission in this world and thus worthwhile to own and not relinquish so easily until its utility was used up.

But back to the basic question, this is a classic mussar idea. You can have all sorts of hisorrerus (or as one mechanech I know says, hisorreruzation) but if you don't translate it to concrete action and a plan, right away, even baby steps, it'll fade away. As has been said, there's free will and, at that point, we still had the yetzer hara for avoda zara (and we still have a yetzer for other types of avodah zara...).

ETA: One other thing we should remember. Yes, they could build a golden calf (!!!) so soon, and we know of other great errors and missteps over the next 40 years. But if you think about it, the bulk of the 40 years was a resounding success of a people built on a foundation of Torah and open miracles. And during the lifetime of Yehoshua, when they had to make the transition to physically working for their sustenance without losing the perspective that it's all still from Hashem (hence the flask of monn kept prominent), they maintained this unparalleled level of excellence.
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