There is Chassidish and then there is Chassidish

amother

Pumpkin

Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:53 pm

Maya wrote:

Non-Chassidish people would order a bagel, but someone with Chassidish background would say the Yiddish-ized "beigel." That would give away the fact that he's not a native English speaker but has Chassidish background even if he currently doesn't look like it.

Thank you.

So how is "biegel" pronounced?

salt

Sun, May 01 2016, 7:34 am

Let's go to the source (ie. trusty Wikipedia). No mention of dress in the initial definition. Although it does say "Each Hasidic dynasty follows its own principles" - so I guess dress code is part of those principles.

Wikipedia:

"Hasidic Judaism or Hasidism, is a branch of Orthodox Judaism that promotes spirituality through the popularization and internalization of Jewish mysticism as the fundamental aspect of the faith. It was founded in 18th-century Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov as a reaction against what was perceived by some as overly legalistic Judaism. His example began the characteristic veneration of leadership in Hasidism as embodiment and intercessors of Divinity for the followers. Contrary to this, Hasidic teachings cherished the sincerity and concealed holiness of the unlettered common folk, and their equality with the scholarly elite. The emphasis on the Immanent Divine presence in everything gave new value to prayer and deeds of kindness, alongside rabbinical supremacy of study, and replaced historical mystical (kabbalistic) and ethical (musar) asceticism and admonishment with Simcha, encouragement, and daily fervor.

Hasidism comprises part of contemporary Haredi Judaism, though its thought had wider influence. Each Hasidic dynasty follows its own principles; thus, Hasidic Judaism is not one movement but a collection of separate groups with some commonality. There are approximately 30 larger Hasidic sects, and several hundred smaller ones."

Raisin

Sun, May 01 2016, 7:51 am

the beigel thing is simply the difference between what we called poilishe yiddish (also spoken by hungarians afaik) and litvish yiddish. (also spoken by lubavitchers) Nothing to do with NY. In London (or melbourne or timbuctoo) also a chassid would say beigel while everyone else says bagel.

We also say flaishig while a person speaking poilishe yiddish would say fleishig.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, May 01 2016, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Actually...

There are many chassidish people today who consider themselves 'neutral' chassidish, meaning that they don't 'belong' to a Rebbe but have the same chassidish minhagim and approach as people who follow a Rebbe.

Either way, I find it sad that that's what remains of chassidus today in many cases - the Rebbe, the minhagim, and the levush.

It was the Rebbe Elimelech from Lizhensk who really developed and popularized the whole Rebbe phenomenon like we see it today.

Before that, chassidus had much more to do with pnimiyus ha'Torah and avodas Hashem.

And from what I see in the Chassidish communities (not speaking about Chabad and Breslov here), most of that is gone. There is so much stress on external things - which were not the intention or goal of Chassidus at all when it started. And I think that is such a sad, tragic loss.

ETA: I hope this doesn't imply any negativity re Rebbe Elimelech - I mentioned him to show how the Rebbe part of Chassidus as we see it today came much, much later in the game.

The Ba'al Shem Tov was born in 1700. Rebbe Elimelech was born in 1717. There weren't that many years separating them, so it doesn't seem like the Rebbe part of Chassidus came much, much later in the game. It seems that that became entrenched fairly early on.

Maya

Sun, May 01 2016, 12:01 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

This is historically correct. The worship of the rebbe as we know it today began just one generation after the Besht.

Tzutzie

Sun, May 01 2016, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

That's so interasting. I was told it was so special because it's like a crown and its worn in shabbos because on shabbos we supposed to act holy and like kings, and it has so much meaning. So that's all not true? It was really just a way of dress back then? Wow!

No. Only the rich people could fried such expensive hats and silk coats (today's polyester bekitchas) therefore it was worn on Shabbos and yomtov or weddings/special occasions.
It was a sign of royalty. That you dress up in the finest lekuved Shabbos.
And yes at the time, those malbishim were the standard of the time. The standard for the rich. A sign of royalty.

So it's both. The levish of the time that was a sign of royalty.

Chloe

Sun, May 01 2016, 12:59 pm

I can't figure out this Tuna Beigel term for those that don't fit into the so called Chassidish box.

There are many people who come from BY backgrounds but wear shtreimels. There are women who come from non Chassidish backgrounds who marry into more Chassidish families. There are people who originally come from families who have been more chilled Chassidim.(And there are so many variations of this).
These are just three examples.
Just looking at family members and friends I see so many who are Chassidish, who don't fit into this box that people decided to define as Chassidish, and they are as far from tuna baigels as can be (husbands learning full time, women giving shiurim). It's time for some people to broaden their minds about Chassidim and to broaden this so called Chassidish box.

WastingTime

Sun, May 01 2016, 2:10 pm

I have no time to read this whole thread but I used to relate to this issue, until I became more acquainted with the real world
Growing up MO, chassidish to me meant super religious. Now I know that Chassidish means the minhagim- the yiddish,curly peyos, bekeshes and streimels, no gebrochts etc etc. obviously different in each sect/area.
This is obviously an over generalization but you get the idea.
Same with charedi, the sheitel, the hat, the cheder etc etc.
And dati leumi will wear a tichel , celebrate yom haatzmau etc.
These things dont mean ANYTHING about tzinuyis or yirat shamayim.
A charedi or chassidish person who is not so spiritual will not all of a sudden become MO. More likely they will keep with how they're comfortable ,with their own adaptations, tznius, smartphone etc (unless its severe spiritual decline. )
So obviously a MO looking man can be much "frumer" than a chassidish looking man. This is not including the whole slew of people who grew up a certain way but are somewhat rejecting it.
This is totally not judgemental, hope it doesn't come out that way

amother

Peach

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 7:10 pm

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

I dont think it is sad at all. I belong to a chasidus who stress external things and really, really their is much more stability and emotional health among the chasidim who follow the rebbe, the minhagim and the levush. Just have a talk with school principals and menhalim and you will see how much they struggle with people who want to do what they want, when they want. Bashing the externals is not coming from a healthy place. Some of those people who have it both ways will have frum ehrlich aineklech, but some of them will have aineklech a little too far removed from yiddishkeit.

FOR THOSE BASHING THE REBBE, THE MINHAGIM AND THE LEVUSH, please remember that you may one day eat your words.
Now let the tomatoes and eggs fly.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 7:19 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

OP, I'm going to let some other stuff than you expect fly.
I see that this thread really resonates/pushes some buttons. Which is all part of the glory of Imamother. No one ever says, don't read old threads. But if you do read an old thread and want to revive it, think about starting a spinoff with a few salient snips and a link to the original. You're likely to get a better discussion going.

Zehava

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 11:19 pm

Ya gotta love the debates here discussing what Chassidus was compared to what it’s today. Because no one realizes that in those days they didn’t have the luxury to even think about such things. Especially the women.
Most were very very poor and ignorant. They worked very hard and lived hand to mouth.
Their lives centered around food, around surviving another day, keeping the children warm and fed.
Yes the men sometimes trekked to their rebbes to soak up some spirituality. But then they returned to chop wood or repair shoes for a few rubles.
They didn’t have time or brain space to worry about dress codes or who can call themselves chassidish.