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amother
Powderblue
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 Sat, Apr 30 2016, 6:08 pm
I was so excited to see that finally, a Jewish publication was talking about enmeshment within families - but I was so disappointed that it wasn't in-depth or so helpful, just raising awareness.
I really could use some tips - my family is extremely enmeshed, as are most families in my society. I'm in middle of making a big decision, and knowing what my family's reaction and attempts to persuade otherwise will be is really hindering me from moving forward with the right choice. My parents believe that their children, even when adults, are extensions of themselves, and it is hard to stand up for my right to live an independent life with a sense of self that isn't so deeply intertwined with my family's.
Any tips or ideas?
(Please don't suggest therapy...)
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Maya
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 6:12 pm
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The best thing to do is to move away to a place where they can't see you at all time. Even the relatively short distance from, let's say, Brooklyn to Monsey can be helpful in also providing some emotional and mental distance which would allow you to make decisions without worrying about the consequences that would be if you lived close by.
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amother
Powderblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 7:07 pm
And that is precisely the decision I'm grappling with!
I'm recently divorced, and am back at my parents - but really need to move out, and want to move to a much more open community.
Problem is, my parents wouldn't hear of me living on my own, and to move to a more 'modern' community is scandalous and a personal affront to them in their eyes.
I know I'm an adult and this is ridiculous - but the amount of inner strength it would take is enormous. My self worth is way too connected to my family's approval of me, and to stand up for myself takes superhuman confidence and strength.
I really need some resources, some tips, on how to deal with just getting out of this sticky situation...
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Maya
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 7:20 pm
I know you don't want the therapy approach, but if your self worth is tied to your family's approval, perhaps that is the way to go.
Otherwise the only other advice I have is to say, just do it.
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amother
Teal
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:00 pm
If you're newly divorced I would urge you to get some therapy anyway.
You don't want to make another mistake like your first marriage, and therapy can help you learn how to determine who is right for you. And if you blame your family for choosing the wrong match, well, at the rate you're going you won't stand up to your family when they suggest another "wonderful" boy for you.
Perhaps I'm projecting my own experience but please don't dismiss therapy as an option. I gained so much as a person.
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sourstix
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:13 pm
Can u suggest to your parents that you find a family to stay with that perhaps has a basement? So you have privacy and then be by them for Shabbis and this way you won't be alone and still have privacy?
I know someone that did this and she was so happy
But the. You need to find a family that does this and is similar in your type
I know it's not easy to find but worth looking into
You would pay them rent so you can be independent and you wouldn't feel like a burden
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amother
Beige
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:22 pm
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Every word u say is true! Omg it's crazy. Wen I got married I was so into my parents view . and they thought only their way of doing things was the right way. wen I got married my husband was totally diff from all my siblings in the frumkeit matter meaning he doesn't believe the clothes make the man (chassidic garb) and my fam is clothes make the man and their way only. Finally after seeing wat a good man I married Bh they finally came around (only took 9 years... ) but still with barbs on occasion. Anyway being enmeshed is crazy I broke away a bit and don't regret it one bit I'm living my life. It was very hard untill they accepted me but we kept being true to ourselves and eventually e/0 came around . In the end living for others will make u very unhappy . Do wat U gtta do and ur parents and family will come around eventually. Good luck
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amother
Royalblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:32 pm
It sounds like they are afraid you will get into the world too much and start seeing things they don't want you to
In short they are afraid you will become more modern they want you to stay temimusdig
You probably feel stifled but they don't mean harm
You need to realize that going to an open community is what they believe is not for a frum person
I am not saying anything negative here I am explaining what their issue is
So being an adult you get to make your own decisions and then can't really tell you what to do
But understand where they come from
It would be wise for you to seek advice from someone you respect
Remember these are your parents and you know what they really want for you is for your good listen to what they say
But be wise and do what's good for you
Something tells me you are rebellious
And I am saying this from what you wrote
The world is a big place and they are concerned for you
Try to work something out that will give them a feeling that their child is doing right and is being mature and responsible not that you want freedom and do whatever you feel like
And I feel you can really use a good therapist to help you with these issues
Find one that has you and your parents in mind
Something tells me you are very young
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amother
Honeydew
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:38 pm
Royal blue you are missing the point.
When parents are enmeshed they do NOT have the good of the child in mind.
They just don't.
And therapist should have client in mind. Where does it say a therapist has to have parents in mind too?
She was old enough to get married she's old enough to make her own choices.
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mommy3b2c
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:39 pm
| amother wrote: | It sounds like they are afraid you will get into the world too much and start seeing things they don't want you to
In short they are afraid you will become more modern they want you to stay temimusdig
You probably feel stifled but they don't mean harm
You need to realize that going to an open community is what they believe is not for a frum person
I am not saying anything negative here I am explaining what their issue is
So being an adult you get to make your own decisions and then can't really tell you what to do
But understand where they come from
It would be wise for you to seek advice from someone you respect
Remember these are your parents and you know what they really want for you is for your good listen to what they say
But be wise and do what's good for you
Something tells me you are rebellious
And I am saying this from what you wrote
The world is a big place and they are concerned for you
Try to work something out that will give them a feeling that their child is doing right and is being mature and responsible not that you want freedom and do whatever you feel like
And I feel you can really use a good therapist to help you with these issues
Find one that has you and your parents in mind
Something tells me you are very young |
Something tells me YOU are very young. (and naive)
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Maya
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:40 pm
| amother wrote: | It sounds like they are afraid you will get into the world too much and start seeing things they don't want you to
In short they are afraid you will become more modern they want you to stay temimusdig
You probably feel stifled but they don't mean harm
You need to realize that going to an open community is what they believe is not for a frum person
I am not saying anything negative here I am explaining what their issue is
So being an adult you get to make your own decisions and then can't really tell you what to do
But understand where they come from
It would be wise for you to seek advice from someone you respect
Remember these are your parents and you know what they really want for you is for your good listen to what they say
But be wise and do what's good for you
Something tells me you are rebellious
And I am saying this from what you wrote
The world is a big place and they are concerned for you
Try to work something out that will give them a feeling that their child is doing right and is being mature and responsible not that you want freedom and do whatever you feel like
And I feel you can really use a good therapist to help you with these issues
Find one that has you and your parents in mind
Something tells me you are very young |
It's completely irrelevant whether her parents' intentions are pure or not; whether she's rebellious or not; whether she just wants freedom or not (and if she does, exactly what is wrong with that?!). She is an adult who should be able to make any decision she wants without considering her parents' thoughts about it.
Her therapist should be concerned about, and consider, only HER. Her parents can get their own therapist to help deal with the "suffering" of this "rebellious" daughter.
Something tells me you're one of those mothers whom the OP is complaining about.
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amother
Royalblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:40 pm
The reason I replied is because I unfortunately have experience in divorce and the enmeshment area
I didn't break away in a peaceful way and I think I did wrong
There is a smarter better way
Don't try to fight them
Learn a way that is good for you and you don't have to get into a fight and that takes chochma
In the end if u do it in a smart way then you have learned a valuable skill that will be good for you in difficult situations
Think before you take your next move don't just think I want freedom
Yes being independent is liberating but it's gotta be done maturely and wisely
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amother
Powderblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:48 pm
| amother wrote: | It sounds like they are afraid you will get into the world too much and start seeing things they don't want you to
In short they are afraid you will become more modern they want you to stay temimusdig
You probably feel stifled but they don't mean harm
You need to realize that going to an open community is what they believe is not for a frum person
I am not saying anything negative here I am explaining what their issue is
So being an adult you get to make your own decisions and then can't really tell you what to do
But understand where they come from
It would be wise for you to seek advice from someone you respect
Remember these are your parents and you know what they really want for you is for your good listen to what they say
But be wise and do what's good for you
Something tells me you are rebellious
And I am saying this from what you wrote
The world is a big place and they are concerned for you
Try to work something out that will give them a feeling that their child is doing right and is being mature and responsible not that you want freedom and do whatever you feel like
And I feel you can really use a good therapist to help you with these issues
Find one that has you and your parents in mind
Something tells me you are very young |
Starting this from the bottom up...
I am not very young, relatively speaking. I didn't get married terribly young and I am fully aware that the world is a big place. I'm not a little child entranced by forbidden escapades, if that's what you mean.
And 'rebellious' is a bit of an odd term for an adult - I'm not a 19 year old teenager...
I have always been way more open-minded and worldly than my family, and they know it. I've never had that 'temimus' you are referring to. It's been a constant source of strife - they do believe that separating oneself from the world is the highest form of spirituality.
My family is extremely into image and appearance. What the neighbors say is of paramount importance. What their children do reflects on their image, and therefore, according to them, we are responsible to keep doing as they (and society) expect us to do.
Re maturity and responsibility, again, I'm not some reckless teenager who just wants to break loose. I just happen to be more of an individual than my family, who thinks that the things I need to do are socially unacceptable, will take it very personally, and use an excessive amount of guilt and disapproval to try to change my decision.
I do seek advice from people I trust. What I'm seeking now is advice on empowerment... I do try to live my own life regardless of what other people say, yet I now need to take that plunge - to fully live life on my own terms. I need encouragement to take that bold step...
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amother
Powderblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 8:49 pm
| Maya wrote: | It's completely irrelevant whether her parents' intentions are pure or not; whether she's rebellious or not; whether she just wants freedom or not (and if she does, exactly what is wrong with that?!). She is an adult who should be able to make any decision she wants without considering her parents' thoughts about it.
Her therapist should be concerned about, and consider, only HER. Her parents can get their own therapist to help deal with the "suffering" of this "rebellious" daughter.
Something tells me you're one of those mothers whom the OP is complaining about. |
Thank you!
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asmileaday
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:01 pm
I think the way to empower yourself is to take that first step and move out of your parents' home. I'm not sure if you have children, that would make moving out of town more difficult.
But first get out of their house. It can't be healthy, especially if you're not that young and they are not giving you your space.
Once you are on your own you'll be able to think more clearly and become more empowered.
I'm no professional but this is my opinion.
I wish you lots of hatzloche and the courage to do what you know is right.
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amother
Honeydew
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:03 pm
| amother wrote: | The reason I replied is because I unfortunately have experience in divorce and the enmeshment area
I didn't break away in a peaceful way and I think I did wrong
There is a smarter better way
Don't try to fight them
Learn a way that is good for you and you don't have to get into a fight and that takes chochma
In the end if u do it in a smart way then you have learned a valuable skill that will be good for you in difficult situations
Think before you take your next move don't just think I want freedom
Yes being independent is liberating but it's gotta be done maturely and wisely |
Maybe it didn't work for you because you were so enmeshed and the other people involved didn't allow you your freedom.
She's not fighting them. She's paving her own way. They should be supportive. They shouldn't fight her.
Sorry for being so harsh. I don't usually voice my opinion on here. But your post needed a response.
ETA-by nature, breaking away isn't a peaceful thing IMO. That's why it's called breaking away.
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amother
Powderblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:20 pm
| asmileaday wrote: | I think the way to empower yourself is to take that first step and move out of your parents' home. I'm not sure if you have children, that would make moving out of town more difficult.
But first get out of their house. It can't be healthy, especially if you're not that young and they are not giving you your space.
Once you are on your own you'll be able to think more clearly and become more empowered.
I'm no professional but this is my opinion.
I wish you lots of hatzloche and the courage to do what you know is right. |
I don't have children, and I know that moving out would greatly empower me. I just find myself quaking at the thought of taking that first step.
A little more background, though I'm starting to think I'm sharing way too much : I insisted on marrying someone my parents really did not approve of, with a completely different approach in life. For complex reasons, it wasn't meant to be.
I developed myself a lot after I moved out. I moved back for two reasons: 1- Financially, it was really hard to keep paying rent among my other expenses, and 2- I was in a very vulnerable place and capitulated to family pressure. Again, they believe it isn't 'normal' for women to be living on their own.
Once I moved backed in, the dynamics slowly reverted back to the way things were when I was single. Everything I do that isn't what they expect or approve is reacted to with tremendous unspoken disapproval and roundabout guilt tactics. It is slowly eroding my self esteem, my self worth, my confidence... and I know I need to get out fast.
Problem is, I feel stuck - very stuck, within my family dynamics. Taking that first step would require mustering up every microscopic piece of inner strength, and I'm not sure I have what it takes to deal with the repercussions when they start assaulting me.
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amother
Teal
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:23 pm
| amother wrote: | I don't have children, and I know that moving out would greatly empower me. I just find myself quaking at the thought of taking that first step.
A little more background, though I'm starting to think I'm sharing way too much : I insisted on marrying someone my parents really did not approve of, with a completely different approach in life. For complex reasons, it wasn't meant to be.
I developed myself a lot after I moved out. I moved back for two reasons: 1- Financially, it was really hard to keep paying rent among my other expenses, and 2- I was in a very vulnerable place and capitulated to family pressure. Again, they believe it isn't 'normal' for women to be living on their own.
Once I moved backed in, the dynamics slowly reverted back to the way things were when I was single. Everything I do that isn't what they expect or approve is reacted to with tremendous unspoken disapproval and roundabout guilt tactics. It is slowly eroding my self esteem, my self worth, my confidence... and I know I need to get out fast.
Problem is, I feel stuck - very stuck, within my family dynamics. Taking that first step would require mustering up every microscopic piece of inner strength, and I'm not sure I have what it takes to deal with the repercussions when they start assaulting me. |
The one detail missing is why you're adamantly opposed to therapy, with all this history.
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amother
Powderblue
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:30 pm
| amother wrote: | | The one detail missing is why you're adamantly opposed to therapy, with all this history. |
Mainly because I can't start opening cans of worms while still living at my parents. I need to be at a safe distance in order to feel safe starting to explore anything in therapy.
In case you're wondering - yes, I tried at first when I moved back. It didn't work. There's just not enough emotional space where I am to be able to do it.
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amother
Teal
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Sat, Apr 30 2016, 9:40 pm
| amother wrote: | Mainly because I can't start opening cans of worms while still living at my parents. I need to be at a safe distance in order to feel safe starting to explore anything in therapy.
In case you're wondering - yes, I tried at first when I moved back. It didn't work. There's just not enough emotional space where I am to be able to do it. |
Can you keep the cans closed?
My therapist asked me my goal in therapy when I first came in and you can focus on getting stronger.
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