Supporting married children

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 12:17 am

This is a spinoff that was inspired by the thread about the wilted wedding flowers and a few other threads that were recently posted.

Help me understand this because I am truly trying to understand. Assuming someone can afford it, why wouldn't a parent want to help support their children? Maybe I'm naive as my children are somewhat young, but I can't imagine wanting to do anything more than give whatever I can to my children.

Why are people having children they aren't willing to take care of? I suppose this is a more complex issue that comes up all the time and not just in regard to finances but I really have a hard time understanding this.

seeker

Fri, May 06 2016, 1:04 am

I have this funny feeling we've been down this road before, so I wasn't even planning to engage at all. Actually I was very much planning to DISengage. But this line couldn't let me:

amother wrote:

Why are people having children they aren't willing to take care of?

What does "taking care of children" mean to you?
To me, and presumably to many others, it means giving them what they need WHILE training them to become independent as soon as they are able.

I've been using imamother long enough that I don't startle easily, but that comment really surprised me. The usual context for that comment is usually something like:
"My neighbor's kids are at my house from the time school lets out, hanging around and asking for food. If I don't let them in then they literally have nowhere to go. Why do people have children they aren't willing to take care of?"
"I'm on the tuition assistance board and this family just applied for a full scholarship for their 11th child. Neither parent has any degree or job training, the mom stays at home and has babies all the time, and they have been with our yeshiva for 20 years and never paid a dime. Why do people keep having children they can't provide for?"
"I'm a teacher and there's this kid whose parents just don't seem to care about at all. He is only 4 years old and already told me he has to pretend he's sick to get any attention. They never come to any school functions. They don't do the take-home activities. If they don't care for their kids then why do they even have any?"
Etc.

5mom

Fri, May 06 2016, 1:23 am

Of course loving parents want to take care of their children. They don't necessarily want to take care of their middle aged offspring and their grandchildren. Are your grandparents still supporting your parents?

All little ones must eventually leave the nest. Breeding dependence means that you haven't done your job in raising your child to adulthood.

It's good to help a child establish independence, to give one-time gifts, and to pitch in when there's a crisis. It's enmeshed and emotionally crippling to have adults in a perpetual position of dependence on their parents.

I'm sure you cut food for your little ones. I'm pretty sure that if they are healthy, you won't be doing it when they are fully grown. Because as a loving mother, you teach them to care for themselves. And in turn, they will be able to care for their own children.

seeker

Fri, May 06 2016, 2:08 am

Also, what does this mean: "Assuming someone can afford it"?
Maybe if you are one of those special top richest people in the world who is sitting on a few extra billions. But if your children are not self-sufficient, then you certainly can't expect them to take care of you when you're too old to do it yourself (and if something happens that can happen sooner than you'd want) and being old is very expensive. The less independently you can take care of yourself, the more expensive it gets. So if I should be so lucky as to have a few hundred thousand extra dollars when I'm middle aged, of course if a child was doing their best and falling on hard times I would help them get back on their feet, but I would not by default be offering to take care of my adult children's normal life expenses. I would invest it in something more likely to enable my own future security so my hard-working children will not find themselves faced with the excruciating problem of what to do about their resource-deficient aging mother when they are already loaded down with the tasks of their own adult lives and families.

seeker

Fri, May 06 2016, 2:10 am

"I was driving down the street in a neighborhood with many children and there were kids all over the street, 5 year olds watching three younger siblings, twice within one block I just barely managed to avoid hurting a tiny kid who was running into the street - why are people having children they aren't willing to take care of?"

seeker

Fri, May 06 2016, 2:12 am

"The poor 20-something clique in the park keep complaining that their parents didn't help with their down payment/invite them for Pesach/buy fresh enough flowers for their wedding/offer to pay their kids' tuition instead of having a vacation for themselves. Why did their parents have these children if they weren't planning to take care of them?"

Mmmmm.... wait. Not exactly the same thing. Nevermind.

vicki

Fri, May 06 2016, 2:16 am

I have so many things to say but I'll take this perspective this time:
Many parents might have some money put aside. They may have, say, 5 kids. They may be in their 40s or 50s or so. They may have their first child getting married. They may be willing to help in some way.
Now, how much do you think is the right amount?
They will need quite a bit of money for their retirement. How much? Hard to know exactly how long g-d will grant them. Hard to know the economy.
There are still children at home to support. How much will they need in the years before they are married. Hard to know.
In addition, there will be more married children coming down the pipeline. How much will things cost then? Hard to know. What situation will they be in? Worse or better than the previous married couples. Hard to know.
Parents do what they feel is right. The pressure to do more is not appreciated.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, May 06 2016, 4:04 am

amother wrote:

Im going to assume you either have very young kids or are not at the married children stage yet or no kids yet. One of those. because anyone who had children of marriageable age would know that this is not about willing to take care of. And at a certain age, parents do not have to take care of their children, monetarily, anyway.
Yes, parents pay for their children while they are growing up. Thats a given. Braces, clothing, food, toys, even sleep away camp for many. But once a child gets married, why should the parents have to support them? AND supporting a married child is VERY different than buying them toys and school supplies. The parents still love their children, but support is different once they grow up.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, May 06 2016, 4:21 am

We are 40 years old and we still don't own a house. We can barely support ourselves. How could we possibly support our kids? Maybe once all our kids are out of the house and we don't have tuition we would possibly have spare cash.

My parents also didn't give us money. They have a lot of kids bh and are not rich. If they would have been able to maybe we would be in a better financial position. But I'd rather see my parents enjoy a comfortable retirement then give us all paltry sums of money. (once it was divided up among us)

In any case I'm a big believer in having adult kids stand on their own two feet. I would be happy to sponsor further education and down payments for my kids (if I had the money) but not really much else.

amother

Emerald

Fri, May 06 2016, 6:06 am

There is a big difference between constant support and occasional. I got married, and am an adult. That means that in general, I should be supporting myself. However, there is an occasion for help. My husband is finishing up school this summer. He's been looking for a job, but it's been harder then we expected. Our lease ends in July. Between the fact that there is a good chance we're leaving this area and we won't have income, we're not renewing. Both my parents and my in-laws have said that if we need to, we can move in with them for a period. Would that be ideal? No, on a lot of levels, and I know especially with my parents, there would be a lot of pressure to really be working on getting out as soon as possible. But they would support us insofar as we would not be starving and out on the streets. Just because their goal would be to push us back out quickly doesn't make them bad people or unsupportive.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 7:05 am

I feel like I didn't express myself well and that my title was misleading... perhaps it was the late hour.

I was really reflecting on the posts where posters said that they never received any help at all or that their parents did nothing for their wedding. I wasn't referring to constant support. I think it's important to raise independent children who can take care of themselves. But I see parents who have money and won't help their children at all, enough to help them stand on their own, and that is what bothers me.

I also work in a field where I am constantly involved with children whose parents had way more children than they could care for, so this is a sore topic for me. Especially since I wish I had more...

amother

Salmon

Fri, May 06 2016, 8:01 am

Can I just chime in that its not always kids feeling entitled that makes it necessary for parents to support them.
My dhs parents put him through the yeshiva system, never encouraged him to become educated at all and always just spoke to him about his wellbeing in learning, not his personal development. He knew they wanted him in kollel and since he's always followed 'the system' he continued to do so.
His parents gave us a little money to support us and then suddenly sprung on him
'You need to support your wife and kids!'
They didn't bring up an independent child- they brought him up to lean on them.
So now when he can't lean on them and needs some time to get himself together (and rightfully so!), he leans on his already overworked , postpartum wife.
He's a great guy and a great father dont get me wrong. But if all you drum into your kids in Torah, Torah, Torah and aren't down to earth and practical then yes, they will end up unsustainable.
From someone who s seen the worst side of 'kollel'

amother

Amethyst

Fri, May 06 2016, 8:11 am

amother wrote:

This couldnt have said it better

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:13 am

amother wrote:

YES. This.

Huge part of my original point in the op

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:31 am

did you not know when you married your husband that he was not trained to be a professional? Why is this your in-laws problem?

I hate to say this, but they do not have to support you. Period. They never did have to support you When you had children did you think your in-laws would support them forever?

I'm sorry but this is not about Kollel. Its about the fact that you expected the unexpectable and never thought about the inevitable next stage.

but its hard, the transition. May Hashem help it go as smoothly as possible for you.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:38 am

amother wrote:

You obviously were not brought up this way. We were not at all prepared for real life in any way. Your judgment is unfair. We were too young and dumb and sheltered to understand any of this. How is this our fault?

Chayalle

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:47 am

amother wrote:

Many young people (many, not all) are brought up by adults who encourage them to make the choices this poster described, and they tell them to just have Bitachon, and that everything will work out...until suddenly they expect them to work things out without the tools being in place to do so.

They don't have to support you, but then shouldn't they have spoken to their son about responsibilities beyond learning? I know men in the Kollel system who were taught that either their wives or their in-laws will take care of them forever, the buck will never stop by them. And no, a starry-eyed 19 year old did not know that this was his viewpoint.

My DH learns in Kollel but I teach my daughters, as I was taught, that it's not all so simple, and that they need to have a plan (I don't have sons yet, but boy would they hear that from me as well...)

amother

Salmon

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

Anyway even if it is my fault for marrying him, he would have been like that whoever he married.
Also I was very responsible and worked hard all the time.
And if its not my ILs job to support married kids then they shouldn't have brought them up with this mindset. They are the ones that signed up for this and they have to deal with the consequences. But are they? No their DILs are.
You make your bed, you lie in it

amother

Salmon

Fri, May 06 2016, 11:55 am

Chayalle wrote:

Exactly well said. And good for you for bringing up your kids responsibly.
And some kollel people have no qualms about shnorring (cuz I'm in kollel) and then say 'well it's all from Hashem!'
This topic is one of my biggest pet peeves

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 12:29 pm

Just to bring some real life examples of how I was brought up (better off than most in my community because my parents were "more open minded")

Quotes from teachers:

- "We had no money to pay the bills and suddenly an unexpected refund arrived in the mail. Hashem will send miracles when you are desperate."
(I have faith in God but have since come to realize that this is actually not what faith or bitachon are. I've been desperate and have not received refunds in the mail)

- "When you are starving and have no money to buy food, only then can you ask a shaila if your husband can go out to work"

- "We had no health insurance growing up, and none of us ever got sick"

- "It's asur to work in an office with men"
(Leaving our only options teaching or shaitels, while supporting our large kollel family)

- "Touro college is asur"

This is off the top of my head. I can write an extensive list if I give it some thought, but I'd rather not even go there as I might have severe PTSD.