My dh insists this is normal. is he right?

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, May 29 2016, 7:20 am

My 10 yr old son had a friend sleep over for shabbos. During the meal, when it seemed the friend was done eating, my dh took a piece of meat and dipped it into the ketchup that was on the friends plate and ate it. To me, this is extremely inappropriate behavior. Dh had always been a joker and a little immature and insists that what he did was not that crazy. Thoughts?

Talya

Sun, May 29 2016, 7:26 am

It may be unusual especially for a germaphobe but I definitely wouldn't get all bent out of shape over it. It's definitely not an issue of immaturity.

vicki

Sun, May 29 2016, 7:28 am

Not that crazy.
Some people are very refined and would never share a plate in any way.
Since the guest was finished, your dh wasn't affecting the child's eating. While I wouldn't do it, if dh didn't mind the germs, he was only affecting himself. People do it.

mommy3b2c

Sun, May 29 2016, 7:40 am

Odd, but not worth a fight.

amother

Blonde

Sun, May 29 2016, 8:02 am

My husband will do that type of thing - snatch a french fry eg - with our children and I can't stand it. Its not gross to use the ketchup, but Imo it's very rude to reach on to someone else's plate without asking, whether they seem done or not. Would he want someone to do that with him? In our case it's a combo of not being taught proper table etiquette and poor impulse control

chani8

Sun, May 29 2016, 8:40 am

If one has a spouse who has what you consider bad manners, it is good manners to look the other way. To criticize is bad manners. To criticize may actually be onas devarim.

Dipping his meat into the guest's ketchup can actually be interpreted as a sign of friendship.

It is common in close relationships to share the food on one's plate. For example, parents dont think twice about taking uneaten food off a child's plate, and either eating it themselves or giving it to another child who wants it.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, May 29 2016, 9:47 am

chani8 wrote:

I have a brother-in-law who would do things like this in order to davka embarrass his wife. If that is the intention here, it's not okay.
Also remember in this case the father wasn't taking ketchup off his own child's plate, but from a guest. That's wierd.

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:03 am

OP here. I guess my husband's overall etiquette bothers me. He's a great husband and a fantastic father but to give a few examples - he sometimes just drinks right out of the container in the fridge if he thinks no one is looking. He has no problem walking around in his boxers with no undershirt in the house, when he uses the bathroom standing up he often won't bother closing the door all the way. Again, he's a great guy but is this remotely normal? He's in his mid 30's.

amother

Ginger

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:44 am

amother wrote:

In ones own home? Yes, Very normal.

Pamela

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:47 am

Is he a guy? Then it's "normal". Guys do that sorta thing. Is it ok that it bother you? Defiantly! You might want to try telling him "honey, it bothers me when you do x,y,z, can you please refrain from doing that at least when the kids and I are not around? I love you". If that doesn't change anything, drop it. From your post it sounds that you marries a wonderful guy, count your blessings. This should be your biggest heart-ache

amother

Blonde

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:47 am

It's normal, but it's also bad manners.

I disagree that one must look the other way. My husband has terrible manners. Bh, this is one of his most annoying flaws and not something worse cvs. We work on it gently (usually), one thing at a time. I try to avoid onaas devarim but if its disgusting to me I think its best to make some efforts to improve the situation rather than to be disgusted with my husband routinely. In my husband's case his unrefined table manners could be a chillul hashem in business settings or around our nonfrum family Belching, disgusting loud throat clearing, leaving a mess after eating, failing to use a napkin, coming to the meal in a tank top undershirt.... Yuk!

Also I want to teach my children to be more refined. I never take food off my childrens or husbands plate if they are still sitting at the table - I ask permission.and they have to do the same. It's about derech eretz and respect for others personal property and space. If I want to show closeness by sharing food, I can ask permission in a loving or flirty way. Just grabbing feels like a violation.

ectomorph

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:48 am

yes, normal.

newmom1987

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:48 am

Yes totally normal. To put it nicely, you must be very refined.

debsey

Sun, May 29 2016, 10:55 am

It's normal to defecate, urinate, fart, pick earwax out of our ears, and scratch. Do we do those things in public? Out of consideration for others, even close family members, we apply some discretion. Your dh sounds like he belongs in a frat house - I would also have a problem with this kind of behavior. Was he raised in a "boys only" family? I disagree w the posters who seem to think u r uptight for objecting. You are just asking for basic human decency!

amother

Violet

Sun, May 29 2016, 11:56 am

My DH's family is like this and it drives me insane. I think it's disgusting but I try to look away. DH learned that I don't appreciate it and he pretty much refrains from doing it in my house.

bluebird

Sun, May 29 2016, 1:21 pm

There are two separate issues here: "normal" as in "do a lot of people do this" and the issue of whether something is socially acceptable or not.

The ketchup incident is flat-out gross. If I were the guest I'd be totally grossed out if someone ate food off my plate or ran their food through it. I wouldn't want to put any of that food in my ketchup again, because I'd now probably be eating someone else's saliva. Maybe I didn't want meat in my ketchup, and now it's there.

How is this behavior funny? Can your husband explain why? What is his motivation for doing it? How do you think it made the guest feel? Is that a feeling that your husband should enjoy causing? Is this behavior good hachnosas orchim? Will this guest want to eat by you again?

Drinking out of the container in the fridge: sure, lots of people do this. It's still disgusting. Saliva from his mouth is going to backwash into the container, and everyone else in the house has to drink that saliva now. If you have guests, they're drinking it, too. People have bacteria in their mouths and food in their teeth if they haven't flossed and brushed, and now that's in the container to multiple and for other people to drink. So, this is unsanitary and rude to other people in the house. Also unacceptable.

Going to the bathroom with the door open: again, lots of people may do this but is it respectful of others' behavior? Is it OK for you or your children to walk by and see other people peeing? How about having his genitals on display for others to see? Is it a lot of effort to close the door? Is the bathroom in the hall for everyone to see, or is it a bathroom in your bedroom? If the latter, maybe it's tolerable.

Walking around in boxers: again, people may do this. As I wrote above, it's rude to other people, especially if you have guests. He's not allowed do see you in a state of undress while you're in niddah, so should is it really respectful of him to be not tzanua in front of you during that time?

You've expressed your displeasure with these behaviors--if he ignores that, is he being respectful of you? Has he asked you to change to make him more comfortable? Is this behavior that he wants to model for his children? Is it acceptable for them to start doing it right now? How about you doing any of them? Is he OK with that?

Some of it you may have to endure because of shalom bayis. But I don't think behavior in front of guests is one of them, that's 100% disrespectful of your guests. Unhygenic behavior is also not OK; I would insist he stop eating out of containers. The other two, maybe you want to ignore.

bluebird

Sun, May 29 2016, 1:34 pm

Oh, on the containers: drinking out of them is still nasty as is putting food in them. But, if he's doing something like eating peanut butter out of the jar taking one scoop is fine by me, as is using using a new utensil each time.

greenfire

Sun, May 29 2016, 2:44 pm

double dipping, licking fingers, sharing plates, drinking before pouring kiddush for others is not pleasant to see or be a guest at - but I wouldn't pull out the straight-jacket ...

debsey

Sun, May 29 2016, 4:36 pm

greenfire wrote:

double dipping, licking fingers, sharing plates, drinking before pouring kiddush for others is not pleasant to see or be a guest at - but I wouldn't pull out the straight-jacket ...

it's not insane, but it is the kind of behavior most of us try to educate our teenaged sons not to engage in. We call that civilizing them. I always so - so your future wife won't have a complaint against me!

greenfire

Sun, May 29 2016, 4:42 pm

debsey wrote:

or mother-in-law won't have to beg for everyone to wash their hands before serving her Wink