Shul definition help... Open orthodox?

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 30 2016, 6:59 pm

We use to attend an open orthodox shul as we lived in a small community. Basically things that would stick out is the mechitzah is waist high and you can easily chat with the men. There are sometimes womens readings in separate areas like Megillas esther and such. Many non orthodox people will drive to the shul and park. Women may or may not cover their hair with some sort of scarf or hat but you probably won't ever see a sheital. Children of attendees may or may not attend private school. There is more but basically it is an orthodox davening with left wing leanings.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, May 30 2016, 7:06 pm

amother wrote:

We use to attend an open orthodox shul as we lived in a small community. Basically things that would stick out is the mechitzah is waste high and you can easily chat with the men. There are sometimes womens readins in separate areas like Megillas esther and such. Many non orthodox people will drive to the shul and park. Women may or may not cover their hair with some sort of scarf or hat but you probably won't ever see a sheital. Children of attendees may or may not attend private school. There is more but basically it is an orthodox davening with left wing leanings.

I actually think this is quite unfair, and seems specific to the shul you went to.

I go to a shul that is led by a YCT rabbi, the mechitza is above my head, but is a curtain that can be pulled aside for speeches. Women can speak from the bima, women can be presidents. There tends to be less of the gashmiyus that happens in MO shuls on the men's side (auctions, paying for Aliya's etc).
Yes to women's tefilla groups but IME, I haven't seen anyone openly drive to my shul. All married women cover (though those who don't are not given the evil eye as in other shuls), and likewise there will sometimes be a sheitel or two they similarly will not be judged. All the children I know in our shul go to MO yeshivas, with a few attending pluralistic or conservative schools, and I'm sure some go to public school (but that's any MO shul).

I think to sum up, women have a bigger role (within the confines of Halacha) and there is less judgment.

amother

cornflower

Mon, May 30 2016, 7:22 pm

amother wrote:

Can someone please define open orthodox for me in terms of how a shul would be different than any place else?
Mechitza: yes or no?
What would women do there?

No bashing please- I am curious as I might be moving to a place where the closest shul of the right nussach is this, or so says one website I read.

Mechitza - yes.
Women may give a shiur, talk from the bimah, or in the extreme lead an "unimportant" part of davening. (They'd have a more inspiring word for it, but it's things like an extra perek of tehillim or maybe even kabbalat Shabbat before borchu. A kadish. Not the main tefilos.) Tznius just is done, but it's not the major focus.

The rabbi is more likely to be a Democrat and pompously push left wing social politics, whether it's proudly skipping "shelo asani isha" (big deal), welcoming gays, or looking for a muslim minister to partner with.

Definitely agree with the amother who said less materialistic than others. OO People have more important things to talk about.

amother

Coffee

Mon, May 30 2016, 7:42 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think I am being unfair. I did not give an opinion on the shul. Our shul prided/advertised themselves on being open orthodox and this is how it was. Clearly there will be a range of observance as "open orthodoxy" is a relatively new term. The interns were mostly from Chovavei.

amother

Brunette

Mon, May 30 2016, 7:59 pm

We lived in a town where the only orthodox shul was open orthodox. Our experience was not positive. We felt very ostracized because of our level of observance -- basically we were the "chareidim" in town even though we are pretty middle of the road "just plain frum." We experienced bas mitzvah services where the bas mitzvah girl led kabbalas Shabbos with a "mechitza" of potted plants spaced three feet apart from each other. It was the only orthodox davening in town, so when my husband didn't want to attend because of the un-chitza and the girl singing and leading the whole thing, then we look like the grinch for not participating in the simcha. The Sunday School class was taken on a field trip to a church. There were conversions going on left and right of people clearly not in a position to make such a commitment (a bride two days before her wedding to a Jewish man and they had been living together, minors living in non shomer mitzvos households, etc.). We were put in very uncomfortable situations again and again because of these things. We never spoke up, just ducked out when we could and avoided awkward situations when we couldn't, but we were still made to feel like the bad guys. It was one of the hardest years of our life, with many medical and family issues, and we really could have used the support of a community. We contributed a lot (running youth groups, teaching, making meals for others), and were met with scorn. I am still really hurt and traumatized by the whole thing.

All that to say, you might want to go and visit. I hope that our experience was an isolated one, but even in a friendlier OO community, some of the halachic "innovations" may not be comfortable for you and your family. Or they may be just what you're looking for. It really depends on who you are and what you want. But be very sure.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, May 30 2016, 8:55 pm

amother wrote:

I didn't mean you were being unfair by giving an opinion on your specific Shul... I just meant you were being unfair by generalizing "because people drove to my open orthodox shul, that means that that is the definition of open orthodoxy..."

amother

Papaya

Mon, May 30 2016, 11:32 pm

amother wrote:

Our MO shul in Monsey has a mechitzah that is about chest high, just some slats without a curtain, the women are on a slightly raised platform and I can easily chat with my husband during davening if he sits near me on the other side of the mechitzah.

Carmen Luna

Tue, May 31 2016, 1:37 am

In the times of the Chasam Sofer this is exactly how the reform movement began. They started with slight changes to the accepted Orthodox minhagim (Im not even talking about the blatant disregard that the OO movement has for Halacha, I.e. women singing, women leading, omitting parts of the davening) and all the Tzaddikim of yesteryear fought them vehemently, seeing the danger of such a movement with their holy vision as a slippery slope to complete assimilation R"L. Thats when in the mid 1800's, the disciples of the Chasam Sofer felt the need to declare the "Upteilung" (Total separation) from the Mischadhsim as they were called in those times, based on their revered Rebbe's ruling that "Chodosh Ossur Min Hatorah" (Anything modernized in Judaism is strictly forbidden from the Torah) They put together a list of standards that must be upheld, to be considered orthodox and chas veshalom not get confused and affiliate with the Neolog community. 2 small examples are, one may not get married in a Shul (as the Neologs brought that custom from the Christians who marry in a church) or one may not go into a shul where the bimah is not in the center of the shul (again, think, altar in a church). Basically, tzaddikim always saw right threw the motives of these thinly veiled changes to yiddishkeit and realized its all the nuances in authentic Judaism that keeps us from assimilating for the last 2,000 years.. Unfortunately, all the Neolog communities eventually ended up totally secular...
OPEN ORTHODOXY IS NOTHING MORE THAN A NEW CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT..

amother

Taupe

Tue, May 31 2016, 1:54 am

Carmen Luna wrote:

First of all, there are many who don't agree with the Chassam Sofer's approach. Take Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsh, for example. Not all tzaddikim have the same approach.

I actually attended a few weddings that were held in shuls. They were beautiful. And extremely yeshivish - think shtark Telshe, for example. I never even heard of this prohibition.

Are you implying that anyone who believes that Judaism SHOULD be modernized - and is being modernized even in strict Hungarian chassidish communities, it's inevitable - is not frum?

Nuances keep changing. Think of your Bobbe Surka in Hungary or Poland who wore short sleeves, for example.

Personally, the attitude you describe is so off putting to me, I would have serious issues being frum if I was expected to have this belief in order to be considered frum.

And I'm saying all this as a yeshivish woman, not remotely OO.

5mom

Tue, May 31 2016, 2:33 am

Carmen Luna wrote:

I suppose you know that tzaddikim also opposed chassidus, and that early chasidim really did have practices that were against halacha. But chassidus spoke to people and dialed back some of the more outlandish practices. Today it's a legitimate movement within Judaism.

None of us practices the religion the way it was 2000 years ago. Stuff changes.

I'm wary of Open Orthodoxy on its merits, but it's flat out wrong to pretend that religion doesn't change with time.

amother

Taupe

Tue, May 31 2016, 2:39 am

5mom wrote:

Thanks, 5mom! I tried writing - and ended up erasing - a whole sermon on how it completely boggles the mind when people try to pretend that the version of Judaism they're practicing is thousands of years old.

And when they claim that today's new fangled chumras are in actuality concrete halachos that all our great great great grandparents followed, you know? (Your mother didn't do it? The mesorah got lost somewhere along the way, but it's there.)

I'll blame it on lack of education in Jewish history, or the rewriting of history.

But it is really annoying and unfair when people undermine authentic Judaism and try replacing it with their own versions of it. Feel free to practice whatever form of halachic Judaism you'd like and call it a valid path, but don't say that THIS is authentic Judaism, no more and no less.