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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Boys yeshiva-shachris-gpa
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Is it fair? read post
yes  
 72%  [ 36 ]
no  
 28%  [ 14 ]
other, please explain  
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 50



amother
Crimson


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 10:19 am
Do you think it's fair to average in attendance of shachris into the gpa?

My ds is b'h doing okay in school, but he has a hard time with mornings. I would guess he missed about 1/8-1/4 of the year in attendance of shachris. Since he's in a dorm, it includes shabbos also. They do give a way to make it up, but he's having a hard time with that because he missed so many times. I understand that they're strict with attendance, but I wish they would punish them a different way. I already spoke to them and my ds Mad , but that's their policy!!
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amother
Puce


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 10:50 am
Why is your ds missing Shacharis? Is he going to sleep on time every night?
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 10:55 am
I don't know what else is going on in your son's life that may be causing him to be late all the time, but I know when I was in HS, lateness definitely affected your grades - including lateness to davening. Why shouldn't he be required to be where he needs to be, and have consequences that matter?
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:01 am
tryinghard wrote:
I don't know what else is going on in your son's life that may be causing him to be late all the time, but I know when I was in HS, lateness definitely affected your grades - including lateness to davening. Why shouldn't he be required to be where he needs to be, and have consequences that matter?

Late to class, but shachris? Yes, consequence, but why shachris equals grade?

As for the amother who asked about if he's going to bed on time is not the issue. I'm not asking if he has to work on himself or anything, I'm asking if you think the punishment fits the crime?
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:06 am
Ideally, the students should want to be at shachris because they like to daven and connect with Hashem. Since this cannot be demanded, at least they want to hold the students to be RESPONSIBLE to show up and show that they care about being present for shachris.
It is perfectly realistic to expect kids to go to bed and get up in time for Shachris and be consequences if they couldn't.

I don't see why it's a problem for the school to make it affect his grade, it is a time they are required to be in school regardless of what is happening at that time. Would you be upset he was being punished if he was missing math which happened to be first period? If anything, Shachris is more important than math, not less.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:12 am
amother wrote:
Ideally, the students should want to be at shachris because they like to daven and connect with Hashem. Since this cannot be demanded, at least they want to hold the students to be RESPONSIBLE to show up and show that they care about being present for shachris.
It is perfectly realistic to expect kids to go to bed and get up in time for Shachris and be consequences if they couldn't.

I don't see why it's a problem for the school to make it affect his grade, it is a time they are required to be in school regardless of what is happening at that time. Would you be upset he was being punished if he was missing math which happened to be first period? If anything, Shachris is more important than math, not less.

I'm not condoning his behavior. He does daven. But who starts class at 7:30 in the morning especially high school?
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:19 am
amother wrote:
I'm not condoning his behavior. He does daven. But who starts class at 7:30 in the morning especially high school?


I hear your point.
7:30 means he likely has to be up by at least 6:45 am, meaning he would have to be asleep by about 10:45. Not the end of the world. As an adult [a few years away] he will need to get up early to daven so he can get to work on time. Perhaps it is training for the life of a religious man.
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:26 am
amother wrote:
I'm not condoning his behavior. He does daven. But who starts class at 7:30 in the morning especially high school?


First of all, there are plenty of public schools starting that early.
In any case, he has no commute. He literally needs to roll out of bed, get dressed and get down there. Plenty of high school kids have to make a bus much earlier than that...

But as others have stated, this is a good preparation for life. You have a responsibility to be somewhere at a specific time. Figure it out.

As for the punishment fitting the crime? Davening is being treated as another academic subject. Whether you hashkafically agree with it or not, (I assume) your son is being treated like every other student in this regard. The school either feels that that is the best way to look at it, OR they have deemed this to be the most effective method of getting kids to cooperate. You chose this school, and you need to accept their prerogative to set consequences.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 16 2016, 2:26 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not condoning his behavior. He does daven. But who starts class at 7:30 in the morning especially high school?


My massage therapist was recently telling me that her son has to be in public high school that early. It's not at all uncommon, and will prepare him for the future.

BTW My girls have to be at their bus stop that early.
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STMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 17 2016, 12:18 pm
Crimson, I think the punishment fits the 'crime', but I hope your son's Yeshiva is doing more to help him religiously with this issue then just giving a punishment for being late to davening.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 17 2016, 2:03 pm
I said no, but I think it depends on where your son is going after he is done at this school.

GPAs are important to let the next school know how your son did. If it is a college, they will not expect davening to be factored in and when they see a lower gpa, they will assume he did poorly in academics. So that's what I don't think it is fair.

On the other hand if your son is going to a yeshiva that expects davening to be factored in to the gpa then it is fair
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 17 2016, 5:31 pm
marina wrote:
I said no, but I think it depends on where your son is going after he is done at this school.

GPAs are important to let the next school know how your son did. If it is a college, they will not expect davening to be factored in and when they see a lower gpa, they will assume he did poorly in academics. So that's what I don't think it is fair.

On the other hand if your son is going to a yeshiva that expects davening to be factored in to the gpa then it is fair


But many academic classes factor attendence into the grade given, so why shouldn't davening be treated as such? Kind of like a seminar class?
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Gitch




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 17 2016, 6:41 pm
marina wrote:
I said no, but I think it depends on where your son is going after he is done at this school.

GPAs are important to let the next school know how your son did. If it is a college, they will not expect davening to be factored in and when they see a lower gpa, they will assume he did poorly in academics. So that's what I don't think it is fair.

On the other hand if your son is going to a yeshiva that expects davening to be factored in to the gpa then it is fair


Colleges are not interested in the religious value of davening, but wouldn't they be interested to know that a future student is responsible to attend class?

I do think though, that if he missed so much davening, the school would have a conversation with you and him about it much earlier than just report card time. There are so many reasons for a kid to not come on time, and possible solutions should've been discussed.
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groisamomma




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 19 2016, 12:28 am
I start teaching before that time OP, and the high school in my area starts even earlier, so it is perfectly reasonable for a bar mitzvah boy to be up and davening by then.

Having said that, I don't think attendance should factor into GPA unless it is negatively affecting his academics. In response to posters saying that he needs to learn responsibility, there are definitely merits to that but personally a student that does well academically should not be punished for waking up late to Shacharis by having his attendance bring his grade down. It would be fair to note his attendance record on his transcript, yes, but it is not fair to his future (college, etc) to combine the two. When a student enrolls in college classes they grow up very fast and usually work hard to get themselves to class on time, so why not give him a fair chance? For some reason I put waking up for Shacharis in a different category.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Sun, Jun 19 2016, 1:28 am
groisamomma wrote:

When a student enrolls in college classes they grow up very fast and usually work hard to get themselves to class on time, so why not give him a fair chance? For some reason I put waking up for Shacharis in a different category.


College students are not generally an early rising group. Some are more responsible than others. Knowing that a student was responsible in high school is useful information.

The biorhythms of a teenager do make it hard to wake up early. Hard, but not impossible. The other kids are doing it. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 19 2016, 1:40 am
Aside from what everyone else said:

If they give grades for Shacharit, then that seems like an easy way to boost one's GPA: Just show up and daven!

If your son is truly interested in his GPA, then he'll show up on time.

Buy him a really good alarm clock.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 19 2016, 8:24 pm
OP- I hope you're working to address the issue. Does your DS have a difficult time falling asleep at night? It would be so frustrating to be punished for having insomnia.
Maybe if you get to the root of the issue and DS starts attending shacharit on time next year, the school would be willing to work with him to "waive" his old shacharit grades so it doesn't have to permanently damage his transcripts.
You also mentioned there was a way he could make it up, but he's having a hard time with it. What is that way? Is it impossible for him to do?
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 20 2016, 2:19 am
DrMom wrote:
Aside from what everyone else said:

If they give grades for Shacharit, then that seems like an easy way to boost one's GPA: Just show up and daven!

If your son is truly interested in his GPA, then he'll show up on time.

Buy him a really good alarm clock.


I do think that being late for shaharis deserves a consequence but it shouldave nothing to do with academics!
I am all for separating the church from the state.
Skipping a class in academics means that one didn't learn enough information.
Skipping davening reflects yoir poor middos, but middos are not what GPA is for.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 20 2016, 2:50 am
imaima wrote:
I do think that being late for shaharis deserves a consequence but it shouldave nothing to do with academics!
I am all for separating the church from the state.
Skipping a class in academics means that one didn't learn enough information.
Skipping davening reflects yoir poor middos, but middos are not what GPA is for.

I'm not sure what your "church and state" argument is about here -- this is a private religious school.

I attended public school, and skipping class resulted in lower grades, even if one knew the material cold and tested well. Class participation counted for a not insignificant part of our grades; one couldn't receive a top grade if one consistently cut class. I think that is fair.

Also, we don't know if this boy skips davening -- for all we know, he davens alone in his dorm room. That's not the point. Just as he is expected to show up to his academic classes and not stay in his room reading his textbook, he is also expected to show up for davening with the rest of his class.

When he applies to universities, I assume they look at his entire transcript, not just his overall GPA. They can see in which subjects he excels and in which ones he is weak. If it is a secular university, I doubt they will care very much about his grade in shacharit.

Again, if this boy *does* care about his grade in shacharit, then all he has to do is get there on time - this is really not asking too much. He is coming from the school dorm, so it's not like he has far to travel. Sometimes life means dragging your tush out of bed and showing up to places you have to be at specified times. Welcome to the real world! Time management is an essential skill in university. If he really wants to prep for university, he can start now.

Edited for typo.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 20 2016, 7:10 am
I've found that often, things like coming to minyan on time is not something that teens are motivated to do on their own. Sometimes they need a motivating factor to push them there. Sometimes a yeshiva offers a great breakfast after minyan as a reward of sorts, or other rewards to push them to do the right thing.

But when that doesnt work, and a threat doesnt work, and offering an alternate assignment (whatever that means, op hasnt explained that yet), there may need to be a reason to push for the boys to become extrinsically motivated when they arent intrinsically motivated. Meaning, an outside force pushing them, when an inside force isnt.

If minyan on time is an expectation of the school, he must come on time. No one says he has to daven. Just show up. In OP's sons case, he isnt missing ever now and then. Its way more than that. This is an act of defiance - like it or not. So now they finally got his and mom's attention, by reminding them that there is a grade for showing up. When nothing else works, what else are they supposed to do? And as far as contacting the parents - really? This is high school. Big kids. Phone calls home for sleeping in arent really a thing. When you send your boys away at this age, you are prism shortly assumingly doing this while keeping in mind that the door counselors are now responsible for them for tasks such as waking up on time, lights out when it's time for lights out, keeping your room clean, etc.
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