UK Imamothers: explain Brexit please

amother

Orchid

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 12:59 pm

Raisin wrote:

As I said, Brexit will not effect these two groups. (if it will, I am not sure how) It will only have an impact on EU immigrants, who right now can come and work and claim benefits freely. (and vice versa)

Don't want to sound clueless but if Britain leaves the EU, then any migrants/refugees to the EU can't necessarily make it to GB. Now one country = all EU. So if GB doesn't want to give handouts to non citizens due to financial constraints then they will be pro Brexit. But they can always accept them on their own...

Raisin

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 1:07 pm

amother wrote:

There are borders between Britain and every other eu country, (with the exception of Northern Ireland/ROI). You need a passport to travel to Britain from anywhere else in the EU. Calais is full of refugees who want to enter Britain but can't. (the sea is in the way) Britain is accepting some refugees, not as many as want to enter. I don't think being in the EU or not would do anything to stem the tide of refugees. Britain would still likely take refugees whether in the EU or not.

pond user

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 1:49 pm

Very very sad about the MP. She was assassinated by an extremist who was furious that she encouraged immigration into her constituency. He husband who was CEO of save the children and her, the NP, both said absolutely nothing when young girls were gang raped by Muslim immigrants in her constituency. They were furious that she did so much good for foreigners but when British people were in trouble her lips were sealed.

Still, it is terribly troubling when someone is murdered over her political stance. There isn't any justification for this. However her murder is being used as a platform for the EU to "prove" that brexit supporters are all neo nazi extremists. That can't be further from the truth.

Moreover-Europe will not stand a chance without Britain. Europe is not peaceful at all! The entisemitsm bubbles literally under the surface-more so now then ever before. It's time Britain quit this farce and stopped wasting energy on a money sucking industry. Europe is dangerously powerful now.

Out out out I say as someone who lives in London. Get us out. The polls are currently 50/50

invisiblecircus

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 2:06 pm

amother wrote:

For the Jewish community, the trouble is with people marrying from Israel, USA etc it won't be so easy to aquire citizenship. So many couples will be forced to prove that they have enough money to support a spouse, rather than doing what they are now which is bringing in foreign spouses and then claiming benefits off the government.

Why do you mention people marrying from Israel and the USA? The ease of acquiring citizenship will not change for those people.

You mentioned an influx of terrorists from Turkey. Actually the biggest terrorism threat seems to be from 3rd generation immigrants.

I'm voting to stay in.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 2:15 pm

Actually it will. All one had to do was move to Belgium for 6 months and prove they lived there. Then they were in.

Also, half if Turkey want to blow up Britain (ok I'm exaggerating) but also, some Syrian immigrants have already been part of terrorist attacks, others have wreaked absolute havoc in the areas they've immigrated to including stealing, gang rapes, voilence and many other criminal activities. I probably would support the immigration issue if there were as much women and children entering as there are strapping young males.

Out for me.

nylon

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 9:04 pm

The problem is that the pro Brexit campaigners want to have it all.

They want access to the single market without free movement of labor or EU regulations. The EU says they cannot have it and the EEA/EFTA countries all are signed up to free movement and have to implement a lot of EU regulations without any say in them.

They will be able to sign a restricted free market treaty, which will take years, and in the meantime the British economy will suffer because it is highly dependent on the EU.

I'm voting to stay in, so is DH.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 20 2016, 11:19 pm

invisiblecircus wrote:

If this is true, doesn't that mean that in a few decades from now there will be even more 3rd generation immigrants in your country? Seems shortsighted to shrug that off...

invisiblecircus

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 12:03 am

DrMom wrote:

If this is true, doesn't that mean that in a few decades from now there will be even more 3rd generation immigrants in your country? Seems shortsighted to shrug that off...

I didn't mean specifically from Turkey but I don't think we can prevent people from entering the country just because their grandchildren might turn out to be terrorists. We can't see how things will evolve.

Too many people are focussing on immigration and using that as the reason for voting out when there are so many other issues to consider.

gummybear

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 12:58 am

pond user wrote:

her murder is being used as a platform for the EU to "prove" that brexit supporters are all neo nazi extremists. That can't be further from the truth.

Moreover-Europe will not stand a chance without Britain. Europe is not peaceful at all! The entisemitsm bubbles literally under the surface-more so now then ever before. It's time Britain quit this farce and stopped wasting energy on a money sucking industry. Europe is dangerously powerful now.

Let's be honest, most people voting for Brexit are doing so because they don't want immigrants. It has xenophobic undertones. Just look at the first response in this thread, where someone basically said Jews should want Brexit to stop the foreigners from taking our benefits.

Leaving the EU will not have any affect on asylum seekers coming to live here, just EU migrants. Most EU migrants help our economy and are hard workers. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c490.....EjIkN

The EU is not a 'money sucking industry' at all. The figures quoted of how much we pay into the EU are misleading. Moreover, the predicted decline of GDP that will occur from leaving the EU will add up to more than what we pay out.
As well as this if we do leave the EU the likelihood is we will have to become like Norway or Switzerland. In order to trade within the EU they still have to pay a lot of money into the EU, accept more migrants, and accept a lot of EU rulings but have no say in any of the matters.

I really have not seen one convincing argument to leave the EU. It seems to be a knee jerk reaction by those either jaded with politics or white supremacists.
The economic ramifications are dire and I don't know why anyone would vote for something guaranteed to send our economy into recession. It could hurt a lot of peoples livelihoods.

Here are several articles explaining Brexit
http://www.economist.com/sites.....6.pdf

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jun 22 2016, 9:23 am

Remain camp here. Not just personally (I work in the financial services, prospects of possibly moving to Dublin or Gurnsey or Frankfurt or Luxembourg don't really thrill me. Both DH and I are immigrants, contribute way above average Brits to tax coffer, my children were raised/cared for by wonderful Hungarian and Romanian nannies/au pairs).

Mercifully, rabbonim had generally stayed away from endorsing one camp or the other (at least the rabbis I know, except for one who is a solid Leave supporter).

I strongly feel Remain side suits broader Jewish interests, not just the ease of bringing EU spouses and sharing of security information. UK Jewish community has been strengthened tremendously by arrivals of French Jews in the last decade or so. We also provide ‘safe heaven’ for other EU Jews who feel insecure in their own home countries—there are a number of Hungarian Jews I know who moved to UK who are very concerned about future in their home country, as well as a highly educated Greek Jew. Another benefits for European Jewish community is Anglo-Jewry is pretty well organised and definitely puts more than its weight on important issues like how to prevent anti-Shechita or anti-Israel legislations in EU. Sharing the uniform rules definitely help us to be able to import kosher foods (esp kosher meat from Irish abattoirs) from other EU member states.

Leave campaign mainly focuses on immigration issues, which I do agree to some degree, especially resource allocation (housing, school places, NHS) and how to integrate them (though UK has done pretty decent jobs among European countries). Concern that they take away jobs from native Britons is a total nonsense, UK has relatively tight labour market esp acute shortage in service industry.

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jun 22 2016, 9:26 am

Fox, Muslim immigration is not really a significant factor, as vast majority of British Muslims are either born here, or come from Commonwealth/former colonies (Pakistan, India, Iran, Iraq, Middle East and gulf countries). We did take in sizeable Yugoslavian and Albanian Muslims more recently. There are definitely heated debates and concern for possibly having to accept Syrian refugees under the EU quota but this is across the country, not just among Anglo-Jewry.

Taupe, I thought the minimum income required to bring in a non-EU (not ‘international’) spouse is like £20k or £25k? I don’t think this is considered ‘very significant funds’ esp in London. I’ve just seen an ad for a full-time shul secretary with similar salary range, I think.

Pond user, I’m just a bit intrigued by your SN… You mean Hampstead Heath???

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jun 22 2016, 9:43 am

Mistyrose amother,

EU does not have the power to overrule individual governments. Aside from setting the minimum floor on certain taxes (VAT, excise duties in tobaccos), taxation still remains the domain of individual government (HM Revenue & Customs in the case of UK). EU headquarter remains in Brussels, you’re probably thinking about European Parliament which moves. And don’t forget UK does receive misc subsidiaries and grants (ranging from farming but the real benefits are in more value-added industries like biotech, aerospace & defence and other R&D).

EU cannot add any country to its members, they need consensus among member states. To the best of my knowledge, most of the member states are against admitting Turkey. Though I do agree with you it was a big mistake to include some of the new entrants, notably Romania. I’m ok with including some of central and eastern European countries such as Poland, Czech, Slovania, and possibly Hungary. (Economies in these countries are already pretty well integrated to existing member countries like Austria/Italy/Germany, my friend commutes daily from Bratislava to Vienna). I am also in favour of restricting access to full social benefit especially when there are big discrepancies between the benefit levels (definitely applicable in Romania, Hungary).

Many of our trade partners including US, China, and Japan want UK to remain as a part of EU, not because they want to control but simply because it’s far more efficient to deal with unified EU regulations than having to comply with multiple regulation schemes.
As for bringing non-EU citizen spouses, (citizenship comes at much later stage after several years, we’re talking about visa ) the procedure (need to prove sufficient income and English proficiency) remains unchanged. There can be a possible concern what happens if UK exits EU and a UK citizen marries EU citizen spouse (who currently does not need a visa).

Fox

Wed, Jun 22 2016, 10:11 am

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Muslim immigration is not really a significant factor, as vast majority of British Muslims . . . or come from Commonwealth/former colonies (Pakistan, India, Iran, Iraq, Middle East and gulf countries).

Thanks, Mrs. Bissli, for such great explanations and such excellent points.

The issue of immigration from Commonwealth countries versus EU-related immigration is not something I've heard discussed much. I assume that people coming from Commonwealth countries and former colonies have a different immigration status than someone coming, from say, Russia?

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:55 pm

I think vast majority of immigration from Commonwealth countries has taken place since 1960s, so not a new issue. Despite Hanoch Powell's xenophobic "sea of blood" speech and continuing achievement disparity among some groups, they are reasonably well integrated. You can apply for a UK visa if you are a Commonwealth citizen and can prove one grandparent was/is a UK citizen.

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jun 23 2016, 2:38 am

Mrs Bissli wrote:

Taupe, I thought the minimum income required to bring in a non-EU (not ‘international’) spouse is like £20k or £25k? I don’t think this is considered ‘very significant funds’ esp in London. I’ve just seen an ad for a full-time shul secretary with similar salary range, I think.

This may not be significant to your average full-time working 25 year old but it's definitely significant for the 18/20 year old sem leavers getting married.

Salaries may be similar in amount per annum but that is income used for daily living expenses and is not savings. AFAIK it's savings of 20-25k that is required.

Mrs Bissli

Thu, Jun 23 2016, 9:35 am

To be honest, I see general population sentiment to/against shechita and beritot is pretty much the same between UK and EU, slightly more opposition in EU. So either leaving or staying won't make much difference for Anglo-Jewry, though for continental European communities, having a vocal and well organised opponent to the bans/restrictions would be an overall plus (as I stated).

Interestingly, at least in UK, there are joint efforts by both Jewish and Muslim leaders to preserve male ritual circumcision and ritual slaughter of animals for meat. I have heard similar move in a number of EU member states on britot (Sweden definitely being one, what I heard from a friend there). I would highly doubt britot would be banned outright given the size of both Muslim and Jewish communities and significance to both. One of German states had its lower court try to outlaw it, but it was either overruled at Federal higher court and/or defined loosely to allow loopholes. (It is possible beritot could be regulated, say, mohelim need to have medical license etc.)

Shechita is a bit tricky as my understanding is halal dzabiha is more lenient, majority opinions allow stunning, and there seems to be more leeway to poultry. We have a more united front on the labelling issue, which is currently on a possible agenda in EU. (Though not sure how extensively labelling would apply. e.g. Hindquarter of animals after shechita not sold to kosher butchers is sold to food manufacturer be processed further. If such meat are processed, say, to lasagne or burgers, who is responsible for the labeling? Supermarket that sells them? Factory canteen that serves things on their menu that may contain meat derived hindquarter of shechita animnals?