Any writing teachers on here?

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:19 pm

I'm interested in hearing how you deal with students who insist that their (awkward/wordy/redundant etc) phrase is correct. Do you lay down the law, no questions asked, or do you give thorough explanations for each correction?

I'm asking because a recent experience with an interdisciplinary project left me with the essays to grade even though I am not the writing teacher.

I prepared a thorough rubric so that the grade is not an arbitrary A or B. However, I found that sometimes I corrected an error that was difficult or at least impractical to prove definitively why the student's word choice was just off.

An example...

A girl wrote "even though this did not accomplish any significance except sadness..."

Ignoring for now the wierdness of how anything can "accomplish... sadness",
the first part of the phrase should be either "anything of significance" or "anything significant".

Yet the student remained unconvinced and decided that "both ways are correct but Mrs. X likes it better this way."

Um... no?

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:32 pm

cnc wrote:

If they're not taught why their way is incorrect then they can't be expected to do it properly the next time around.

I think it's only fair that an explanation is given/taught.

Do you teach writing?

I'm interested in the practical approach to this. Does the teacher pick one or two types of errors to focus on for each assignment, or is every error corrected each time like I did for this project? And how can a teacher possibly explain the reason for each error for each student if she takes the second approach?

And what if the reason is very nuanced, like the example I gave? It's not a simple rule like "plural noun requires plural verb".

How would you have explained this particular example so the student gets it?

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:48 pm

amother wrote:

I have taught writing in the past and corrected everything. I include rules wherever possible. But sometimes it's difficult to explain, so I'd simply write "awkward" and rephrase it properly.

In this particular example, I'd give her both options of correcting but the original is definitely wrong. Why? I'd need to analyze it in depth in order to determine which part of its structure is incorrect, but I can't afford that extra time when marking 30 or so papers.

cnc

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:49 pm

amother wrote:

I don't teach writing(I'm sure that's obvious from my posts!)
I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a student. I had an extremely difficult time with writing assignments in college because teachers in high school would mark things and tell me it doesn't sound right so I'm taking off credit...well if we're marking things based on how they sound and not on concrete rules, students will have a difficult time learning how to write properly.
I don't know if you have to correct and explain each error on the paper, but if the student comes over to you to ask why she got something wrong I think it's only fair that you provide the explanation or rule.

If it's such a nuanced rule and it was never taught (and you dont plan on teaching it) then how is it fair to take off credit and expect her to do it properly the next time?

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:55 pm

cnc wrote:

I typed up a long response which got erased, so I'll just summarize.
Students need to learn proper usage of words and phrases even when there are no rules guiding that usage.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:56 pm

cnc wrote:

I have seen that a student can have a great vocabulary and know all the technical rules yet still be missing that knack. Teaching writing is not only about the rules and vocabulary, it's also teaching clarity of expression.

It's just hard to break it down to rules when it isn't necessarily about a broken rule. You know how a paper can be "correct" by a computer's standards yet make no sense to a human reader? Google translations come to mind. Or word processing spelling corrections.

How can this be taught?

Reading a lot helps, just like watching speeches can help with public speaking. But is there an educational formula?

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 4:59 pm

Another writing teacher here. The girls in our school get a sheet at the beginning of the year that has a list of abbreviations and explanations, such as "agree.- subject and verb must agree," or pov - point of view must remain consistent (first person, second person, etc.) In fact, the words you used in the op - awkward, wordy, redundant - are all on the sheet too. This allows for quick, constructive comments during marking.
In the above example, I would write simply, "awk., rephrase." When the correction takes only a few words, I'll write a new version for the student to see, but when an entire sentence has to be restructured, I don't start rewriting a student's essay.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:03 pm

amother wrote:

Another writing teacher here. The girls in our school get a sheet at the beginning of the year that has a list of abbreviations and explanations, such as "agree.- subject and verb must agree," or pov - point of view must remain consistent (first person, second person, etc.) This allows for quick, constructive comments during marking.
In the above example, I would write simply, "awk., rephrase." When the correction takes only a few words, I'll write a new version for the student to see, but when an entire sentence has to be restructured, I don't start rewriting a student's essay.

I like this approach.

If the girl argues that it is correct, what do you do? She claimed to have picked it up somewhere in a written work.

I put the burden of proof on her and told her to bring me an example where the author correctly used these words together in this context.

But that feels like a cop-out.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:08 pm

cnc wrote:

Okay.
How?

Well one way is by my correcting her.
I also always suggest reading.
I also often tell them not to pick out words from the thesaurus that they've never heard of. There's connotation, context, accepted usage... which can only be learned from direct exposure to the usage of those words through reading or listening.

cnc

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:08 pm

I'd like to add that many high schools in my community have brought in and implemented a writing program. There is a trained teacher who comes in and teaches only writing (not ELA). She starts from the basics and works her way up. The quality of writing work in the local high schools was terrible before this. I've seen some of the sheets from the program and was very impressed.

You can say that students need to learn proper usage even when there are no rules guiding them but isn't it the responsibility of the teacher to teach them?

cnc

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:12 pm

amother wrote:

Okay this sounds fair enough.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:15 pm

cnc wrote:

Yes, and that's why I disagree with the second amother here. I DO correct most errors so that the student can learn from it. If I write "awkward" without correcting, what has she gained? I spend an average of 30 minutes for each one-page essay. (The really poor ones only take 15 minutes while others take 45 minutes.)

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:25 pm

amother wrote:

If the student wants to discuss why I wrote something, I'd be happy to explain and provide ideas for rephrasing or restructuring, BUT I would never engage in an argument like the one you describe. It's demeaning for a teacher to go back and forth with an argumentative student whether sth is/isn't correct. I would politely but firmly tell the student she's welcome to bring in the article/book she saw (perhaps it's correct because dif context) but that just because something is printed doesnt necessarily mean it's correct. "The other versions we discussed would all be great options," and just end the discussion.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:33 pm

amother wrote:

With writing it's not always so black and white if something is right or wrong, so it's ok to discuss it. You call it argue, she calls it discuss. I've had discussions (aka arguments) with other writing teachers regarding certain writing rules and we agree to disagree. (For example, beginning a sentence with a conjunction or using a dash in place of a comma)

However, I disagree with OP that it was a cop-out to have the girl bring in a source. Once you see where it was used, you can discuss if it's a valid source or not.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:42 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with the above. I've had some great discussions with students about how language is fluid and usage and rules change. For some reason, I got the feeling that the op was dealing with a student who likes to argue, rather than one who genuinely wants to learn. Obviously, different situations require different approaches.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:48 pm

amother wrote:

If that's the case, it's irrelevant which subject is being taught, just avoid engaging.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:49 pm

amother wrote:

This girl seemed astounded that her writing skills were being called into question, possibly for the first time, and worried about how it would affect her otherwise excellent grades.

It was only a project but what a fuss! Apparently I was stricter than their writing teacher.

Regarding the fluidity of language, one of the girls made this absurd claim, only half in jest: "if I use it this way, then it IS used this way, therefore it is correct to use it this way..." (I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of her point.)

Um... again, no.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 21 2016, 5:57 pm

amother wrote:

That's a funny one!

I'm more traditional in that I expect adherence to all grammar rules. (Otherwise, how can I expect them to know when it's necessary and when it's more optional...) But we discuss different styles and why writers don't always follow the rules.