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Goodbye Mikvah lady
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 2:24 pm
http://www.jewishpress.com/new.....6/22/

A halakhic drama reached its surprise happy ending Wednesday at the Israeli Supreme Court, when the role of ritual bath supervisor, a.k.a. “Mikvah lady,” has been changed from mandatory to optional.

Israel’s state prosecution on Wednesday submitted to the Supreme Court, in the name of the Chief Rabbinate and the Ministry of Religious services, an official response to a petition by the Itim organization, conceding that “the dipping woman will be allowed to decide for herself whether she wishes to follow this halakhic rule (dipping under the supervision of a Mikvah lady), including dipping alone or dipping in the company of a female friend, and neither the local religious council nor its employees are allowed to condition the dipping on the obligatory presence of the ritual bath supervisor.”

The response represents a complete capitulation of the relevant state institutions, and the state prosecutor requested that the high court dismiss the original petition because it is no longer necessary.

At the same time, it cannot be said that the Chief Rabbinate Assembly has given up the fight altogether. They will continue to compel the local religious councils to hire Mikvah ladies, and post a sign in every mikvah explaining the halakhic obligation for supervision during a woman’s dipping. A woman wishing to dip on her own would be forced, every month, to go through the process of publicly showing that she ignores the rules that are posted on the sign for all to read.

The specific halakhic role of the Mikvah lady, as explained by Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan Rabbi Yaakov Ariel, is to make sure that a woman’s entire head of hair has gone underwater, because if it didn’t there’s a problem in the dipping and the woman’s availability for intimacy with her husband is questioned. Rabbi Ariel proposes that the dipping woman call on the Mikvah lady once she has immersed in the water, and ask her to watch and see that her entire body of hair went underwater.

Incidentally, it should be possible for a friend to advise the dipping woman regarding the immersion of her hair.

As to the problem of “knots,” the woman should shampoo and comb her hair prior to dipping so that it isn’t entangled.

The initial petition was submitted to the court in July 2015, in the midst of what was then a year long, stormy debate within the Orthodox community, between young women who rebelled against the authority of the Mikvah lady and the established Orthodox institutions. The petition, submitted by Itim, represented 13 women who wanted to be left alone when they’re dipping.

Orthodox authorities are concerned not only about the proper execution of the halakhic dipping, but also about the push to permit unmarried women to dip, which the rabbis view as an invitation to lechery.

The case will be heard by the Supreme Court on Thursday despite the surrender of the Chief Rabbinate and the Religious Services Ministry, because one plaintiff, the Jerusalem Religious Council, is still a holdout, insisting that the Mikvah “is not a bathhouse, but an instrument whose sole purpose is to effect a kosher dipping, which must be determined by an authorized supervisor.”

Itim Chairman Rabbi Dr. Shaul Farber praised the Chief Rabbinate for following the Jewish tradition of preferring permission over prohibition. One of Itim’s arguments was the fact that the stern Mikvah ladies were pushing young women away from the mitzvah of dipping in the mikvah at the end of their cycle, thus actually diminishing family purity in the nation.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 3:46 pm
Nobody has any thoughts on this??
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 3:51 pm
I'm fine with that. Although I'm not sure how a secular court can be expected to weigh in on this issue.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:09 pm
I think it's great. I don't mind Mikvah ladies but I know many who do and this may make their Mikvah experience more pleasant.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:22 pm
I think that any woman who wants to fulfill the mitzvah completely will call a ML but by having the "option" it doesn't feel like she is infringing or being pushy etc.
Also I like the suggestion that a woman can call the ML once shes in the water.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:24 pm
I'm also happy about it though it might not be the last word on the matter.
And women who want to dunk unattended will still have to choose their mikva carefully if they want to avoid unpleasantness.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:29 pm
I don't think mandatory mikvah lady has to be forced on everyone. But why do some women not want a mikvah lady? Just trying to understand.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 4:53 pm
amother wrote:
I don't think mandatory mikvah lady has to be forced on everyone. But why do some women not want a mikvah lady? Just trying to understand.


I have a friend who is very involved in militating for this.
According to what she has told me, it is a make or break issue for some women.
There are many reasons, most of which are personal - not ideological.
Sometimes the background is trauma.
Other times its a very heightened self-consciousness regarding one's body or other privacy needs.
Some crave complete soltitude during immersion.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 5:02 pm
I wish I wouldn't have to be watched by a mikva lady!!!!!!!! I cry every time because I hate it so much. I struggle a lot with all the halachos of nida, but one of the hardest things for me is involving others, like asking a rav about a bedika and having someone watch me.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 5:36 pm
amother wrote:
I wish I wouldn't have to be watched by a mikva lady!!!!!!!! I cry every time because I hate it so much. I struggle a lot with all the halachos of nida, but one of the hardest things for me is involving others, like asking a rav about a bedika and having someone watch me.


My husband brings in my shailos. Maybe your husband can do this for you. Also, ask mikvah lady to enter the mikvah only after you are in the water.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 5:41 pm
My husband does bring in questions for me, but even that is too hard.
I think I once asked and she said no. But I'm not sure. When I asked her to go out before I come out, she gave me a hard time and I had to ask 3 times. I almost started crying in front of her.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 5:52 pm
I live in the US and have never had an unpleasant experience here. However, that is not the case for my experiences in Israel. I actually posted about it a couple years ago here and am still upset about it: http://www.imamother.com/forum.....art=0
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Miri7




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 6:01 pm
If it will encourage more women to go to mikvah, then that's fantastic. Hopefully, the publicity around this will make MLs more aware of ways they can enhance all of the dippers' feelings of privacy - by offering to wait outside while the dipper enters and exits, by holding up the robe/towel, or by turning to the wall while the woman enters and exits. Or even allowing people to BYOML (Bring your own mikva lady) to watch them immerse. Some ladies may have intense privacy issues. That should not prevent her from being able to keep TH in a way that's not traumatic for her.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 7:33 pm
Miri7 wrote:
If it will encourage more women to go to mikvah, then that's fantastic. Hopefully, the publicity around this will make MLs more aware of ways they can enhance all of the dippers' feelings of privacy - by offering to wait outside while the dipper enters and exits, by holding up the robe/towel, or by turning to the wall while the woman enters and exits. Or even allowing people to BYOML (Bring your own mikva lady) to watch them immerse. Some ladies may have intense privacy issues. That should not prevent her from being able to keep TH in a way that's not traumatic for her.


This!
It will make Israeli MLs more understanding!
I only ever went once in Israel but its up there with one of the most disgusting experiences of my entire life.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 8:30 pm
I want to interject to say that my experience in the US has been fine but it was amazing in Israel in the mikva on Rechov H'ari and in Katamon. They asked if I wanted to be checked and were so sweet.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 10:20 pm
I'm not sure I understand. I thought the mikvah lady is there also so that no one gets hurt/drowns. I'm thinking of the legality of this for the mikvah's sake. What if G-d forbid something happens, and no one was there to watch dunk, can mikvah be sued. Or am I thinking like an american?
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BrachaBatya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2016, 10:28 pm
I think it's great. The last time I went to the mikveh, I told the ML I was okay and wouldn't need her with me. She was very nice about it and I got to dunk in privacy. It was really comfortable that way for me. I cringe at the lack of privacy of the ML.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2016, 12:30 am
octopus wrote:
I'm not sure I understand. I thought the mikvah lady is there also so that no one gets hurt/drowns. I'm thinking of the legality of this for the mikvah's sake. What if G-d forbid something happens, and no one was there to watch dunk, can mikvah be sued. Or am I thinking like an american?


In general, yes, this is part of the ML's role - in Israel too, though I'm not sure that the legal aspect is as pronounced here since we're talking about public mikvaot run by the Ministry of Religious Affairs.
The ML is supposed to be attentive too to any signs of distress from the preparation rooms.
Still, she can keep an ear out, from behind the door, for anything irregular while the woman dunks alone.
I would also like to point out that there has been an effort underway in the past few years to educate Israeli ML employed by the Ministry - in response to complaints and various types of litigation, and from recognition that improvement is needed - through courses and seminars in various areas such as: detection of domestic abuse, basic psychological aspects of the mikva experience, privacy needs, effects of s-xual abuse etc. to increase their sensitivity to the woman who use the mikva.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2016, 12:48 am
I think despite having many wonderful mikva ladies ~ this really is a private spiritual moment ... I never understood why a more shy person has to feel so vulnerable - and aren't we all similarly embarrassed when naked
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2016, 1:01 am
Im just wondering, for all you ladies who said you had awful experiences in israel in the mikvaot, what were those experiences? Ive been going to mikvaot here in Israel for the last 11 years and never had a bad experience, even in mikvaot where they check you and even sit there and scrape off your dead skin (no choice thats the way it was done) I never had a mean balanit and never a bad mikvah experience here in Israel.
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