The deal with tattoos?

amother

Black

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:26 pm

I'd like to understand why tattoos are an issue? I mean, after 120 our flesh rots away and is eaten by bugs, so what is the issue with tattoos? I know someone with vitiligo that would love to be able to tattoo something on her hand to hide the white spots, and someone with a scar from back surgery that would love to turn that pain into something positive. For some people tattoos are an expression of themselves, so why are they such taboo? Did our ancestors not tattoo themselves? Also, generally red ink tattoos fade: are those allowed? What about makeup tattoos? Do you have any tattoos that you got as a frum woman? Please help me understand this because tattoos have always been important to me and while I don't have any intentions to get more tattoos as a Baal Teshuva, I'm still interested in discussing this in a frum context.

amother

Black

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:28 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Tattoos are a chatzitzah. It's that simple.

Temporaries are fine.

Chatzitzah for what? Temporary would be chatzitzah....

Maya

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:31 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Tattoos are a chatzitzah. It's that simple.

Temporaries are fine.

On the contrary. Anything permanent is not a chatzitzah while temporaries definitely are.

The issur against tattoos is an entirely different story than chatzitzah, IIRC.

OP, I use temporary ones for fun.

amother

Black

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:31 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Chatzitzah for Mikva. Temporary is fine, because you can take it off before going to the mikvah.

Permanent tattoos are not a chatzitzah for mikvah, just like anything permanent on your body. I personally have a tattoo from before I was frum and was never told anything like that. Tattoos are not allowed in and of themselves which I'm trying to understand.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:33 pm

amother wrote:

Well then I don't know. Sorry.

amother

Aqua

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:39 pm

It's not about chatzitzah. It's an actual, specific mitzvah to not cut and/or apply permanent ink to our bodies. I think it was something done by idol worshippers at one time, maybe a mourning ritual...I can check and find the exact source, if you like.

Scrabble123

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:41 pm

I've heard that it may be a chok, but I've also heard that Jews used to have tattoos and that there are pasukim in navi suggesting that. People who worshipped idols may have tattooed them onto their arms, and I believe the Rambam mentions that and says that none the less one should still not tattoo himself/herself even if it is not with avoda zara. It's not a straightforward thing and there is definitely a machlokes about the reasoning behind it and if it means all tattoos or only some, but today it's paskened that it applies to all tattooing. Again, I'm not a dayan, and this information has just been gleaned from my discussions with Torah competent individuals over time. I'd love to hear more on the subject.

amother

Rose

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 2:50 pm

It's an explicit pasuk in parshat kedoshim. It's an issur deoraita. It was a practice associated with Idol worship in the ancient world, which is the main reason for it.

Scrabble123

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 3:25 pm

amother wrote:

It's an explicit pasuk in parshat kedoshim. It's an issur deoraita. It was a practice associated with Idol worship in the ancient world, which is the main reason for it.

It's not an explicit pasuk, and there is a difference in opinions regarding what kind of tattoos and tattooing in general. Rambam ruled that it applied to all tattoos and that is what we pasken today, but the pasuk is not explicit and the understanding not limited to one explanation.

amother

Rose

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 4:00 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

It doesn't get more explicit than "thou shalt not make carvings on thy flesh". The pasuk does mention a separate practice of whipping oneself in mourning. What's up for interpretation is the relationship between the 2 clauses (which is the issue in most of the pesukim in that parsha). It is most definitely a deoraisa, no debate on that.

Scrabble123

Fri, Jun 24 2016, 4:37 pm

No. Some mefarshim believe it simply means not to write Hashems name on your flesh. There are pasukim in Yeshaya that refer to JEWS having tattoos. Rambam mentions the pagan practice and states that none the less it applies to all tattoos but not all are of that opinion, although that is the one we follow today....

FranticFrummie

Sat, Jun 25 2016, 2:48 pm

A friend of mine had a double mastectomy, and after breast reconstruction she was given a heter to have nipples tattooed on, for psychological reasons.

The plain text of forbidding marks on the skin clearly states "for the DEAD", as in a sign of mourning. I know that further commentaries expand it to mean any tattoo for any reason, but I do know of Jews who have gotten tattoos for life affirming reasons, and they are OK with that.

You can't possibly say that a tattoo excludes you from the mikveh (or a Jewish burial), because where would that leave all the Holocaust survivors?

mommy3b2c

Sat, Jun 25 2016, 11:24 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

You can't possibly say that a tattoo excludes you from the mikveh (or a Jewish burial), because where would that leave all the Holocaust survivors?

I didn't say it excludes once you have it, just that you are not supposed to get it because it is a chatzitzah. I always assumed that people who got one already for whatever reason were allowed to go to mikvah anyway. That's what I always thought. Apparently I was wrong.