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-> Interesting Discussions
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amother
Powderblue
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 Sun, Jun 26 2016, 5:59 pm
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This shabbos I read a very sad article in my local 5towns paper written by a mother whose 28 year old son had recently died from a heroin overdose. She talks about several things but one topic particularly resonated with me. She said that certainly a yeshiva should not throw out a boy suffering from drug addiction. On the contrary, the yeshiva has an achrayis to help its bochrim, and who needs more help than such a boy? I've been going back and forth with this idea since shabbos. My immediate reaction was that how can a yeshiva tolerate drug abuse? Boys involved in drugs should be thrown out no questions asked. On the other hand I see her point. A yeshiva should be there to help and not throw its problems in the street were it will inevitably get worse. What do you think?
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Hatemywig
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:12 pm
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The yeshiva should refer the boy and his parents to professionals who can help, perhaps leaving an opening for the student to come back when he has been rehabilitated if it can work out.
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amother
Ecru
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:12 pm
A boy on drugs needs to be in a recovery program, not yeshiva. I don't know of any yeshivas equipped to deal with such an issue. When he has gone through drug treatment he should not be banned from yeshiva but he needs proper support and supervision. His family needs to make sure his needs will be met there and that the yeshiva understands what the boys needs are.
Why would a mother want her son to be in a situation where he's not getting the help he needs? He should not be kicked out, but he should go elsewhere to recover.
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amother
Navy
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:27 pm
There are different levels of drug use. Basically users, abusers and addicts. Unfortunately there are users in many yeshivas. Those boys don't necessarily need rehab but the yeshiva must get to the bottom of who's supplying and why. Yeshivas are really in a tough place. If they kick this boy out, he will probably get much worse, if they don't their drug problem will probably multiply and that's wrong for the rest of the student body.
Once a kid reached the level of abusing, most cannot stop on their own. There is no yeshiva that is equipped to deal with that and they shouldn't. It is wrong to sacrifice an entire school for one child.
I know from personal experience that once a child starts using, their mind is not their own anymore. They are not in a place where love and logic can reach. They need professional help to get them to a place where they want to change. Once they get there it's still a long climb up and yeshiva will probably not be the right place for him
Drug use is a game changer in more ways than one.
This mother must be in a tremendous amount of pain. I've been there. Her son made a choice and paid a terrible price. But yeshiva are not to blame.
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imasinger
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:30 pm
If a boy is kicked out of yeshiva, one would assume he goes to his parents. If someone ends up on the street, is it the yeshiva who kicked him there?
Maybe the yeshiva arranged the expulsion too harshly, and that was the issue. And/or maybe this grieving mother is looking for someone to blame for her tragedy.
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Hatemywig
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:35 pm
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Most addicts end up in the streets as their families are put at risk. They steal, lie and manipulate to get money for their addiction, the only person that can help them is them-self. It's tragic, sad and frustrating.
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amother
Yellow
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 6:39 pm
The Frum community provides very few resources for addicts. There may be some twelve step groups, but are there any places with supportive medical withdrawal programs for Frum addicts? Chabad in Los Angeles used to have programs but I don't know if they were medically supervised for the purposes of withdrawal. It may help to investigate.
I think that a Yeshiva would not be the best environment for an addict but I question whether a quick explusion solves anyones problems. Is that their first and only step to dealing with the problem?
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amother
Powderblue
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 7:38 pm
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op. Another interesting thing the mother said in the article was that drug use in frum yeshivos is a very real and common problem. Maybe I'm naive but I was shocked to read this. In a typical not to far to the right or left yeshiva, is drug abuse common? I find that one hard to believe.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 7:43 pm
| amother wrote: | | op. Another interesting thing the mother said in the article was that drug use in frum yeshivos is a very real and common problem. Maybe I'm naive but I was shocked to read this. In a typical not to far to the right or left yeshiva, is drug abuse common? I find that one hard to believe. |
Drug abuse or drug use?
I'm not excusing any use of illegal drugs, not do I think the yeshiva should tolerate it, but most people I think would agree there is a world of difference between some occasional pot smoking and shooting up heroin. I have been made aware that pot use is not uncommon in yeshivas. Heroin? I have never heard this and sure hope it's not common.
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Fox
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 9:01 pm
Heroin and other opiates have a somewhat different profile than drugs like marijuana or even cocaine. Heroin is not typically used in social settings -- it's more often used initially for self-medication: physical or mental.
In fact, one of the fastest-growing demographics among heroin users are middle-aged people who have first become addicted to opioid painkillers prescribed after surgery or for chronic pain. And if you can't imagine how that happens, then start thanking Hashem that you've never been in that much pain. I can think of a few occasions in my life when, if someone had shown up at my door with a baggie, I would have been all in.
I always found it interesting that Kurt Cobain, the late 80s/early 90s rock star who committed suicide as a result of his addiction, originally tried heroin because he had severe recurrent stomach pains that had plagued him since his early teens. His parents had taken him to many doctors, but they never discovered the cause and never adequately treated his pain.
So one thing that our schools need to do is watch people who are in pain -- physical and emotional. Of course, schools can't prevent every ill in the world, but approximately 75 percent of heroin users have a concurrent condition, such as depression, ADHD, excessive anxiety, or other mental illnesses. We can definitely do better at recognizing and treating problems before people begin experimenting with dangerous self-medication.
Another problem, one that none of us is probably in a position to solve, is the regressive attitude in the US about treating drug addiction. Buprenorphine has been shown to be very successful in helping heroin addicts taper off their use and quit, but it requires special physician training, and very few doctors know how to use it successfully. It also faces constant opposition from rehab experts who are more committed to 12-step programs than to success.
In a perfect world, a heroin-addicted bochur could stay in yeshiva, take Buprenorphine while tapering his heroin dosage under supervision, and eventually get completely clean -- while addressing whatever led him to his addiction in the first place. In a perfect world, we'd treat it more like we treat a diabetic kid, for instance.
All that said, I'm not holding my breath.
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Rutabaga
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 9:11 pm
| amother wrote: | The Frum community provides very few resources for addicts. There may be some twelve step groups, but are there any places with supportive medical withdrawal programs for Frum addicts? Chabad in Los Angeles used to have programs but I don't know if they were medically supervised for the purposes of withdrawal. It may help to investigate.
I think that a Yeshiva would not be the best environment for an addict but I question whether a quick explusion solves anyones problems. Is that their first and only step to dealing with the problem? |
I don't know anything about this program, but there was an ad for it in the same paper as the article referenced in the OP (although thankfully not on the same page as that would be in extremely bad taste).
http://shalomjewishrecovery.com/wellness
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DrMom
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 9:15 pm
| Hatemywig wrote: | | The yeshiva should refer the boy and his parents to professionals who can help, perhaps leaving an opening for the student to come back when he has been rehabilitated if it can work out. |
This seems reasonable.
I believe the yeshiva has an obligation to remove him from the yeshiva immediately, for his own sake as well as the sake of the other boys whom he may influence.
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amother
Yellow
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Sun, Jun 26 2016, 9:20 pm
| Rutabaga wrote: | I don't know anything about this program, but there was an ad for it in the same paper as the article referenced in the OP (although thankfully not on the same page as that would be in extremely bad taste).
http://shalomjewishrecovery.com/wellness |
TY. Their link does say they do medically supervised detox. Each patient gets a 2100 sq ft suite and there is a spa too, and everyone gets a personal trainer and their chefs all have Michelin stars. This place probably makes the average school tuition look cheap.
It's a pity that the average family wouldn't likely be able to afford this level of treatment for their child.
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amother
Blonde
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 5:21 am
| amother wrote: | TY. Their link does say they do medically supervised detox. Each patient gets a 2100 sq ft suite and there is a spa too, and everyone gets a personal trainer and their chefs all have Michelin stars. This place probably makes the average school tuition look cheap.
It's a pity that the average family wouldn't likely be able to afford this level of treatment for their child. |
This is not an exclusive problem for our community. Good rehabs cost a lot of money, as does the intensive therapy required for years. Few can afford it.
Fox, unfortunately experience has shown that relying on these tapering-off meds keeps people from doing the actual work required to manage their problem long-term. Obviously the plural of anecdotes is not data and more research needs to be done as to how to balance all the components of successful recovery.
Unfortunately dual diagnosis is very common. I've seen numbers even higher than those you quoted. Few mental health professionals have the tools to tease out the root causes and separate syndrome from symptoms. Is it bipolar mania causing addiction, or ADHD impulsivity leading to highs and lows of self-medicating? And the risk of the wrong meds exacerbating the problem is very high. This can cause decades of frustration for an addict and their family - if they happen to be from a family who cares enough and is capable of trying to help. And if they don't end up dead first ch'v, with no real answers or solutions.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 6:27 am
| DrMom wrote: | This seems reasonable.
I believe the yeshiva has an obligation to remove him from the yeshiva immediately, for his own sake as well as the sake of the other boys whom he may influence. |
That's what has to be telegraphed in an expulsion, not the bad influence on others.
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yo'ma
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 6:30 am
| DrMom wrote: | This seems reasonable.
I believe the yeshiva has an obligation to remove him from the yeshiva immediately, for his own sake as well as the sake of the other boys whom he may influence. |
I feel bad for the boy, but I wouldn't want my ds in a yeshiva where they allow drugs abuse or just usage.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 6:44 am
| yo'ma wrote: | | I feel bad for the boy, but I wouldn't want my ds in a yeshiva where they allow drugs abuse or just usage. |
Sure. And I understand yeshivos having zero tolerance policies, or close to it for some things. But we should all be compassionate, not disdainful. (And I'm sure all of us are.)
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DrMom
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 6:49 am
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I'd be furious if I were paying thousands of dollars each year to give my son a religious education in a frum environment, and the administration knowingly exposed him to drug users.
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amother
Silver
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 7:03 am
| amother wrote: | The Frum community provides very few resources for addicts. There may be some twelve step groups, but are there any places with supportive medical withdrawal programs for Frum addicts? Chabad in Los Angeles used to have programs but I don't know if they were medically supervised for the purposes of withdrawal. It may help to investigate.
I think that a Yeshiva would not be the best environment for an addict but I question whether a quick explusion solves anyones problems. Is that their first and only step to dealing with the problem? |
I thought there are at least 2 Jewish programs if not more. One in Florida and one in California. Unfortunately I know people who attended both. I know many who go to non Jewish programs as well. Better to be alive then dead.
The Jewish programs are a fortune. I know one father who collects 6K every month to keep his son in the program. Non Jewish programs are also expensive. I don't think funding these programs are on many people's radars once they are done funding other community organizations\institutions, its hard to fundraise
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amother
Ecru
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Mon, Jun 27 2016, 7:07 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Sure. And I understand yeshivos having zero tolerance policies, or close to it for some things. But we should all be compassionate, not disdainful. (And I'm sure all of us are.) |
Thank you for this. (The hug is from me). Unfortunately not everyone is so compassionate. See the post below yours.
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