Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
Should a yeshiva kick out a boy for drug use?
Previous  1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 27 2016, 7:15 am
amother wrote:
Thank you for this. (The hug is from me). Unfortunately not everyone is so compassionate. See the post below yours.

Since the post to which you refer was written by me, I will respond:

I'm plenty compassionate. I hope the drug-using or drug-addicted boy gets all the help he needs to kick his habit, and yeshivot should become educated about how to put impacted families in touch with the resources they need.

But in the meantime, the yeshiva has a responsibility to keep the other boys safe so this problem does not spread to other boys. Ignoring the problem is not being "compassionate" to anyone.
Back to top

amother
Lavender


 

Post Mon, Jun 27 2016, 9:11 am
DrMom wrote:
Since the post to which you refer was written by me, I will respond:

I'm plenty compassionate. I hope the drug-using or drug-addicted boy gets all the help he needs to kick his habit, and yeshivot should become educated about how to put impacted families in touch with the resources they need.

But in the meantime, the yeshiva has a responsibility to keep the other boys safe so this problem does not spread to other boys. Ignoring the problem is not being "compassionate" to anyone.

This. Most yeshivas can barely manage a simple learning disability. Drugs are way beyond anyone's pay grade. Being "understanding" and "non-judgmental" doesn't help anyone, least of all the afflicted kid. That doesn't mean you cruelly throw him in the street and throw up your hands and say he's bad and worthless. But if it's beyond what the school can safely handle, they should tell the parents to get him the appropriate help, and they will welcome him back with open arms when he's ready.
Back to top

amother
Purple


 

Post Mon, Jun 27 2016, 1:49 pm
amother wrote:
This. Most yeshivas can barely manage a simple learning disability. Drugs are way beyond anyone's pay grade. Being "understanding" and "non-judgmental" doesn't help anyone, least of all the afflicted kid. That doesn't mean you cruelly throw him in the street and throw up your hands and say he's bad and worthless. But if it's beyond what the school can safely handle, they should tell the parents to get him the appropriate help, and they will welcome him back with open arms when he's ready.


This would be lovely... The reality however is that you rarely have a situation in which a teen is struggling with drugs in a vacuum. Mostly, along with the drug addiction is an entire lifestyle involving partying and risky behavior and similarly minded friends. Both before, during, and after the drug addiction has been treated, there needs to be a school environment that is equipped to deal with all of the manifestations of the struggling teen. So returning to a mainstream yeshiva after a stint in rehab would usually not be an appropriate choice at all.
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 28 2016, 8:42 am
when people are thrown out of schools in place of getting help it can surely exacerbate any issues ... there should be a way to guide the family & bring the kid some rehab and keep his place in yeshiva

tangentially I had a similar reaction to my daughter after having tried to commit suicide - they did not want her back ... I think it should have been sufficient to get her the appropriate help/hospitalization, etc. & see how she progresses ... instead it left her feeling forever unwanted

this surely leaves a bad taste for frumkeit on anybody [mind you in this co-ed school boys were bullying her & well their money talks because I can tell you they had many issues but never got thrown out]
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 28 2016, 8:46 am
greenfire wrote:
when people are thrown out of schools in place of getting help it can surely exacerbate any issues ... there should be a way to guide the family & bring the kid some rehab and keep his place in yeshiva

tangentially I had a similar reaction to my daughter after having tried to commit suicide - they did not want her back ... I think it should have been sufficient to get her the appropriate help/hospitalization, etc. & see how she progresses ... instead it left her feeling forever unwanted

this surely leaves a bad taste for frumkeit on anybody [mind you in this co-ed school boys were bullying her & well their money talks because I can tell you they had many issues but never got thrown out]


I would think a lot depends on the educational options. If this the only local yeshiva and the boy would be living at home with parental supervision, it could well be a good option for him to return once healthier and ready. There are a lot of factors, some of them legit. (Unlike your sad money talks example. Hug )
Back to top

amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 4:51 am
Were looking at this issue backwards.

What leads many kids to the drugs and depression?

We can analyze all we want about this issue, but once a child is thrown out of school, often for having gone to a movie or wearing not so appropriate clothing, and is separated from lifelong friends, its a downward spiral. This child is doomed, and its a clear path to drugs and depression. The Rabbis can cry and scream from their lecterns when one of these children die, but in most cases,this is what starts it all. Getting thrown out of school.

Instead of looking at these kids as Kiruv opportunities, they look at them like terrorists destroying the school. When the kids see the hypocrisy of big names in the school doing the same and not getting thrown out, it kills them even faster.

The schools throwing these kids out are handing them a ticket to death.

Kids who are on drugs while in school, thats a different issue, but its being thrown out of school for lesser evils, that sends most kids on a straight path to drugs and depression.
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 4:54 am
amother wrote:
Were looking at this issue backwards.

What leads many kids to the drugs and depression?

We can analyze all we want about this issue, but once a child is thrown out of school, often for having gone to a movie or wearing not so appropriate clothing, and is separated from lifelong friends, its a downward spiral. This child is doomed, and its a clear path to drugs and depression. The Rabbis can cry and scream from their lecterns when one of these children die, but in most cases,this is what starts it all. Getting thrown out of school.

Instead of looking at these kids as Kiruv opportunities, they look at them like terrorists destroying the school. When the kids see the hypocrisy of big names in the school doing the same and not getting thrown out, it kills them even faster.

The schools throwing these kids out are handing them a ticket to death.

Kids who are on drugs while in school, thats a different issue, but its being thrown out of school for lesser evils, that sends most kids on a straight path to drugs and depression.


Which is why true mechanchim and gedolim will say, the school must have an exit strategy for this child before telling the parents the school won't work for this child. (Or vv.)
Back to top

amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 5:00 am
PinkFridge wrote:
Which is why true mechanchim and gedolim will say, the school must have an exit strategy for this child before telling the parents the school won't work for this child. (Or vv.)



If it was decided in a community that wives have to be thrown out and separated from husbands and kids as punishment for a sin, how would any wife/mother survive it, even with the best "exit strategy"? C'mon. Lifelong relationships are lifelong relationships! The best of exit strategies lead to more serious drugs and more serious depression.

A ticket to D E A T H !
Back to top

DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 5:18 am
amother wrote:
What leads many kids to the drugs and depression?

We can analyze all we want about this issue, but once a child is thrown out of school, often for having gone to a movie or wearing not so appropriate clothing, and is separated from lifelong friends, its a downward spiral. This child is doomed, and its a clear path to drugs and depression. The Rabbis can cry and scream from their lecterns when one of these children die, but in most cases,this is what starts it all. Getting thrown out of school.

amother wrote:
If it was decided in a community that wives have to be thrown out and separated from husbands and kids as punishment for a sin, how would any wife/mother survive it, even with the best "exit strategy"? C'mon. Lifelong relationships are lifelong relationships! The best of exit strategies lead to more serious drugs and more serious depression.

A ticket to D E A T H !

You are making all sorts of melodramatic claims here.

Who says the boy in question wore inappropriate clothes or was separated from friends?

You seem to be projecting some personal experiences onto this question.
Back to top

amother
Slategray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 5:26 am
DrMom wrote:
You are making all sorts of melodramatic claims here.

Who says the boy in question wore inappropriate clothes or was separated from friends?

You seem to be projecting some personal experiences onto this question.


Im talking about what I hear from family and friends. What makes RIGHT WING schools throw kids out, these days, if not dumb things like inappropriate clothes or having gone to a movie? Kids dont have to be caught on drugs or shoplifting to be thrown out. These days its stupid stuff that has gotten many kids thrown out of RIGHT WING schools and then leads them to drugs and depression.
Back to top

chani8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:19 am
The question really is, why are these boys getting on drugs in the first place. In my circle of social media, the heroin addicts in the frum community are survivors of child abuse, usually s-xual abuse. The system that protects abusers and pretends s-xual perversity isn't happening in yeshivas, cheders and segregated dorms, is the same system that wants to throw its victims out on the street once they start acting out.
Back to top

greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:30 am
amother wrote:
Were looking at this issue backwards.

What leads many kids to the drugs and depression?

We can analyze all we want about this issue, but once a child is thrown out of school, often for having gone to a movie or wearing not so appropriate clothing, and is separated from lifelong friends, its a downward spiral. This child is doomed, and its a clear path to drugs and depression. The Rabbis can cry and scream from their lecterns when one of these children die, but in most cases,this is what starts it all. Getting thrown out of school.

Instead of looking at these kids as Kiruv opportunities, they look at them like terrorists destroying the school. When the kids see the hypocrisy of big names in the school doing the same and not getting thrown out, it kills them even faster.

The schools throwing these kids out are handing them a ticket to death.

Kids who are on drugs while in school, thats a different issue, but its being thrown out of school for lesser evils, that sends most kids on a straight path to drugs and depression.


I don't understand why more people don't see this. It is a major factor; yet most people are blind ... to the death
Back to top

amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 11:05 am
Oh boy this is such a hot-button issue for me.

For all the talk about how Jews value education, we don't see it in the Yeshiva system. Schools using suspension/expulsion as a discipline tool, in many cases for very trivial reasons (music choices? Wrong color clothing?)

I am a pediatric nurse practitioner. I don't practice in the frum community. In the general world expulsion is practically unheard of unless the child has committed crimes. In the frum system we see 5th and 6th graders being expelled! For what, chutzpa? We've lost sight of our purpose.

Yes, I know the Yeshiva system has a particular structure and not everyone can fit that structure. But in order to maintain our "system" we are willing to throw away thousands of precious neshamos each year. Once a kid is out on the streets with no structure, what are his prospects for ever living a normal life?

I know a boy who is 17 and has not been in school for the past 3-4 years. Yes he has severe mental health issues and is on multiple medications. He literally has nothing to do with himself all day. No structure. No goals. For all his teen years!! He should better go to public school. Our kids aren't failing. Our SCHOOLS are failing!!

In the case of drug use, in my opinion the correct approach should be treatment followed by the quickest possible return to a structured environment, if not the original school then a different one that's a better fit. We have to end our complacency about the hundreds (thousands?) of boys dropping out every year to do nothing.
Back to top

amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 11:26 am
DrMom wrote:
I'd be furious if I were paying thousands of dollars each year to give my son a religious education in a frum environment, and the administration knowingly exposed him to drug users.


It's not a question of your child vs someone else's child. These are our children too. How we treat them directly impacts the quality of chinuch ALL our children receive. It may not be your child but it could be your nephew, your neighbor, your grandson. And it might not be drug use but some other problem the school decides it can't/won't deal with. It does not bode well for any of our children when they see that some of them are disposable.

Oh and btw I hate to break it to you but your child is already exposed. Better to spend your precious chinuch dollars teaching him HOW to respond and interact with imperfect people.
Back to top

yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 11:56 am
For the sake of the other boys, a boy on drugs CANNOT remain in yeshiva! he needs help, and the other boys are at risk of getting addicted too. However, it is the responsibility of the rosh yeshiva to make sure the parents get the boy the proper help he needs. It should not be "kicking out" rather, sending him to a more suitable place for him.
Back to top

amother
Gray


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 12:16 pm
yksraya wrote:
For the sake of the other boys, a boy on drugs CANNOT remain in yeshiva! he needs help, and the other boys are at risk of getting addicted too. However, it is the responsibility of the rosh yeshiva to make sure the parents get the boy the proper help he needs. It should not be "kicking out" rather, sending him to a more suitable place for him.


First of all drug use is not contagious unless he's pushing drugs. And nobody on this thread is advocating leaving him in school without treatment. What we ARE advocating is some form of counseling/treatment (depending on the exact form of drug use) with a plan in place to return to school as soon as feasible, or concerted effort to find a more appropriate placement.

What we are more than tired of is our yeshivos throwing up their hands at dealing with any student with any sort of problem and just kicking them to the curb. As much as we are each trying to protect our own children I don't think it does them any favors to realize how tenuous their own place in Yeshiva is if they fail to exactly toe the line.
Back to top

ValleyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 5:33 pm
Addiction is a DISEASE.
Back to top

ValleyMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 5:37 pm
What kind of heartless school would not let a young girl return to classes after seeking professional help?

Administrators like that should NOT be at the helm of large schools.

On the contrary the young woman needed EXTRA TLC, attention, love, support. It must be very challenging to be at such a low point in your life emotionally- then pull yourself out of the black abyss with the support of a loving mom and a team of professionals... and then... finally... after a lot of hard work and professional help she is willing to go back to school and she is told NO.

That breaks my heart.
Back to top

NovelConcept




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 7:51 pm
Chani8, I think you are falling prey to non-Jewish (antisemetic) claims that yeshivos cover up for abuse. I have a close family member that works in several chareidi yeshivos and if a child even HINTS to a inappropriate conduct from other kids or staff members, they launch a full investigation.

All of our charedi buses and classrooms are outfitted with life-feed videos so that administration is constantly monitoring to make sure students are safe, and bus routes are timed down to the minute. If a child arrives home late, they launch a full investigation to make sure that the child is safe. Even Chaverim has a list of all bus drivers phones, addresses, etc, to be able to find them if there is any suspicion.

Don't be so quick to cast blame on a yeshiva system. I, and people like me, pride ourselves on doing our part to protect our children to the best of our ability from sick people. Unfortunately, there ARE sick people, but we try our best, and pray, pray! Just like you do.
Back to top

musicmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2016, 10:08 pm
Heroin is very scary. People who use and are addicted to it can lie, cheat and steal from those that love and trust them. I would not want such a person in the Yeshiva around young and trustworthy young people. I do hope they get the help they need but not at the expense of bringing others down.
Back to top
Page 2 of 3 Previous  1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Clothes Shopping List for Baby Boy
by Sushi22
3 Yesterday at 10:56 pm View last post
4 yr old boy wedding
by amother
3 Yesterday at 8:05 am View last post
Yeshiva area babysitter small group willing to pay
by amother
0 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:12 pm View last post
Boy's Tzitzes
by amother
0 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 10:18 am View last post
Baby boy leaking out of his diapers
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 8:55 am View last post