DD tells me I'm not tznius

amother

Mint

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 6:29 pm

As others have said just explain to your daughter that Morah (or whoever) meant when a girl/woman is not in a private place she needs to be tzanuah. Our house is our private place but when we go out we do dress tzanuah.
No need to tell the Morah to be careful how she explains these things. When teaching 4 year olds a teacher will say that big girls keep their legs covered.... Not go into all the details which is exactly how a 4 year old should hear it. (I hope the teacher was talking about the girls - which included moms too!)
If for some reason the school you send to does have the type of parent body/hashkafah that hold that you should keep your legs covered at home then you should either keep to the school's standards or send to a different school. It's not fair to the children when they learn one thing in school and see something different at home.

kjb

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 6:46 pm

mint - I totally agree about not confusing your child by ignoring school standards, but I don't think its too complicated for a morah to slip in something simple about being able to be a bit more relaxed in private.

Fox

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 6:54 pm

My advice is to take the advice offered by other posters (e.g., "We are allowed to wear pajamas in private" or whatever best reflects your beliefs) AND not worry too much about it.

I certainly wouldn't make a school decision based on this.

No matter where your kids get their information, they are going to come up with some lulus. Every parent I know has stories of things their kids have told them or told the neighbors that were spectacularly misguided or downright offensive.

When my twins were 4, they told a boy in their playgroup that he wasn't Jewish. The morah was mortified, of course, and so was I. Turns out he had very short peyos, and since "boys wear peyos because they're Jewish," they had decided on their own that his didn't count.

Not sure if that was better or worse than when I was 4 and told a neighbor that my mother never, ever bathed. After all, I'd never seen her take a bath or shower . . .

Maya

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:04 pm

Fox wrote:

The issues that OP is bringing up - no socks, walking around in just a slip, no pajamas - is consistent with a right wing education, not just some "lulus" that the child came up with out of the blue.

If the OP will constantly be contradicting whatever the girl is learning in school by saying "we're allowed in the house" or "our rabbi lets" when this child is being taught that it is NOT allowed, the only result will be confusion. Four is too young for a child to comprehend the nuances of this issue, and in my opinion, explanations are useless for kids that age on such major issues.

Maya

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:07 pm

Honestly, if I were the OP and I had no intention of changing my child's school to a better fit hashkafah-wise, I would comply with whatever she is learning at school, at least until she is old enough to understand why mothers may sometimes do things differently.

imasinger

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:23 pm

Maya, what happened to you in regard to this issue?

OP, I wonder -- as a preschool music teacher who is in and out of a lot of schools across the spectrum -- how easy it would be to find out what exactly the morah said. Around here, the moros are very open to hearing from parents and helping straighten things out. Lots of times, kids mis-hear, or misunderstand things. This could all be a tempest in a teapot. Communication is usually the first step in straightening things out.

Notsobusy

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:43 pm

I can't imagine why a teacher for four year olds would even be discussing tznius in the home.

Op, you can definitely tell her that there's a difference in how we dress in public vs in private. No need for any long explanations of my rav vs their rav, or you can do what you want when you grow up. She's four, like Fox said, at that age and even older, kids very often misunderstand what the teacher says. You will have this issue many times, in many ways, over the years, where your child will tell you something the teacher said, it makes no sense to you, and when you ask the teacher you will find out that's not what she said/meant.

Also, no matter what school you send to, and how closely you try to align their hashkafos with yours, sometimes they just won't match. You are the parent and you will have to explain to your child that this is how we do it. Is this your oldest child?

Stars

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:46 pm

imasinger wrote:

In chassidish and rw yeshivish schools this is pretty standard teachings. The kid didn't misunderstand.

Maya

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:48 pm

OP has not specified which circles she's in, but there are groups where girls are taught that from the age of three, they cannot wear pants or walk around without socks, etc. They are told this in school, and the dress code rules reflects these teachings.

I'm surprised that so many of you think the child misunderstood or didn't hear right.

ETA: cross posted with Stars.

amother

Beige

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:50 pm

Yes, but pajama pants are perfectly okay, even in very RW circles - don't know about chassidish, but even in really yeshivish families the girls and women wear pajama pants.

Maya

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:52 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, but pajama pants are perfectly okay, even in very RW circles - don't know about chassidish, but even in really yeshivish families the girls and women wear pajama pants.

It's not acceptable in the majority of mainstream Chassidish homes.

tigerwife

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 7:54 pm

I would say in regards to what your daughter wants for herself, pick another battle. Let her wear only nightgowns or any other (reasonable) request. But it needs to be clear that you are the Mommy and we cannot boss Mommy around. For example, "Darling, you are right that when we are in public we need to wear socks. But in the house, it's OK not to and what Mommy is doing is OK. We don't tell a Mommy what to do."

Keep in mind she'll probably pass on all the information to her morah. Smile

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:00 pm

Another point. Teach her not to talk about what she sees at home. Little talkative children have no idea what is ok and what's not in terms of talking about something they saw. You don't want your 4 year old telling her friends and teachers at school that she saw you in a slip (and whatever else she might come up with).

Lady Bug

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:08 pm

This is a great opportunity to have a discussion with your daughter about the real meaning of tznius. Discuss with her the difference of what we do inside and what we do outside. How the same action may be appropriate in private and inappropriate in public I.e. using the bathroom, sleeping is done in bed, eating in the kitchen, we get undressed when bathing/shower etc. When we go to sleep, there is a different standard of dressing that is considered tznius, like wearing pj's. When we go to a wedding we wear a gown. Dunno how to explain a slip around the house, because that is kind of underwear, but I would tell my kid that a long skirt is appropriate at home, but not when dressed up.

I don't know if you can live your life worrying what your 4 year old will blabber to her teacher. That would be a very stressful way of living for me.

rmbg

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:30 pm

What message are you trying to send your daughter? How do you want her to differentiate between when we listen to Morah and when we don't? (My boys don't learn anything about tznius in school but they comment on it and I'm so happy when they do. They're right!) if you 100% believe what you're doing is right then tell her the Halacha says it's allowed.

bluebird

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:42 pm

tf wrote:

This is good because it's a lesson for OP's daughter that tzniut isn't all about clothing, it's also about conduct like keeping private things private.

busymom

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:50 pm

Child: Mommy, you're not wearing socks! My teacher said it's not tznius.
Mother: She's right, and I'm so proud that you listen so well! Right I always wear socks (or never wear pants) when we're outside? But here at home, it's okay not to wear socks because we're only with our family, not in public.
I loved what the other poster said about leading to discussion of undressing in private and not in public etc...
I think four year olds are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between private and public. No need for a long winded explanation about her rav and my rav.
I agree that its important to send kids to a school that reflects the home's hashkafos but I think this is simply a case of building on and clarifying the teachers lesson. I don't call this contradicting what the teacher said.

sequoia

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 8:51 pm

Why is there a two page discussion about this? What is so difficult about saying, "We dress differently at home and out of doors"? You know, just like we put on shoes to go out and take them off at home. All of you who are saying, a four year old child can't comprehend nuance - are you kidding me? They can't understand the difference between "at home" and "outside"? Yeah, pretty sure they can.

Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:16 pm

sequoia wrote:

My assertion that they have difficulty with nuance comes from observation of my child's pluralistic preschool class. Learning to acknowledge and accept everyone's variations on Jewish life was a part of the focus of the school, and the little kids just didn't get it.

Of course they understand outside vs. home. What they have trouble with is "Sarah is Jewish this way, but Moshe is Jewish that way." This was just around age 3-4. By elementary school it really was not a problem.