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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Preschoolers
DD tells me I'm not tznius
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:20 pm
sequoia wrote:
Why is there a two page discussion about this? What is so difficult about saying, "We dress differently at home and out of doors"? You know, just like we put on shoes to go out and take them off at home. All of you who are saying, a four year old child can't comprehend nuance - are you kidding me? They can't understand the difference between "at home" and "outside"? Yeah, pretty sure they can.

These girls are taught that these things are assur IN THE HOME too. They can't leave their bedroom without socks, and they can't wear pajamas in their own beds.

If this was just an inside vs. outside thing, then you're right. But this is a situation where "my teacher says so-and-so is outright halacha, yet mommy seems to ignore that. Who is right here, and whom do I listen to?"
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:21 pm
busymom wrote:
Child: Mommy, you're not wearing socks! My teacher said it's not tznius.
Mother: She's right, and I'm so proud that you listen so well! Right I always wear socks (or never wear pants) when we're outside? But here at home, it's okay not to wear socks because we're only with our family, not in public.
I loved what the other poster said about leading to discussion of undressing in private and not in public etc...
I think four year olds are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between private and public. No need for a long winded explanation about her rav and my rav.
I agree that its important to send kids to a school that reflects the home's hashkafos but I think this is simply a case of building on and clarifying the teachers lesson. I don't call this contradicting what the teacher said.

See my comment above about them being taught that it's not allowed in privacy either.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:25 pm
Maya wrote:
These girls are taught that these things are assur IN THE HOME too. They can't leave their bedroom without socks, and they can't wear pajamas in their own beds.

If this was just an inside vs. outside thing, then you're right. But this is a situation where "my teacher says so-and-so is outright halacha, yet mommy seems to ignore that. Who is right here, and whom do I listen to?"


I'm still wrapping my brain about the fact that all this is taught to four year olds.

4 year old girls being taught they can't leave their bedroom without socks??
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:29 pm
amother wrote:
I'm still wrapping my brain about the fact that all this is taught to four year olds.

4 year old girls being taught they can't leave their bedroom without socks??

Presumably, the OP is not walking around without socks or without a skirt outdoors. The fact is that her four year old daughter criticizes her for walking around the house with no socks on. Do you think she just made that up, pulled it out of thin air? No, because the OP is not surprised to hear this, she just wants to know how to reconcile what the child is being taught at school with what she, the mother, wants to do in her own home.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:32 pm
I'm not questioning others experiences.

I am simply astounded that 4 year olds would be taught such things. And I grew up in an extremely RW home, went to an extremely RW school, and I've never been taught you have to wear socks in your own home. Especially not at 4 years old.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:34 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not questioning others experiences.

I am simply astounded that 4 year olds would be taught such things. And I grew up in an extremely RW home, went to an extremely RW school, and I've never been taught you have to wear socks in your own home. Especially not at 4 years old.

Obviously, what you consider extremely RW is nowhere near as RW as others are. Smile

Again, the OP hasn't specified what kind of school her daughter attends, but none of this is surprising to me.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:39 pm
I guess so...

Just curious, is there an actual halachic source for this?
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busymom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:41 pm
Maya wrote:
See my comment above about them being taught that it's not allowed in privacy either.

But why assume that's the case here? Chances are the teacher simply made a general statement about wearing socks and the dd then made this comment.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:42 pm
My daughter didn't start even discussing tzinius in school until about 6 years old, so I'm guessing the schooling is different (my 4 year old is still in short sleeves and short socks) - and I thought we were right wing LOL

I could see a 4 year old stretching whatever the teacher said should be done. Like we always wear socks to meaning inside the house as well even if not specified. My 6 year old even does that I explain to her that inside my home with no one there is different. I'm 100% sure her teacher is not telling her how to dress inside. (the girls go swimming in regular old bathing suits and no socks...I think that makes it easy to explain private vs public)

I do feel very strongly that parents should live inline with what schools teach, even if it is different then their own hashkafas. I can see children having a very time separating home from school and picking up what is different and what is not and what is correct and what is not.
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 9:49 pm
imasinger wrote:
Maya, what happened to you in regard to this issue?

My mother didn't want me to abide by the school rules when I was on her watch, during the time I spent out of school. Sometimes the teachers saw me on the street or in stores. As a result, I was labeled the "modern one" all through high school, and the teachers kept a constant watch on me and picked on me, often for really no good reason. I could write a book about those three years of hell. It was such a "famous" thing that my husband's chosson teacher, who had a few sisters teaching there at the time, told my husband before we got married to "be gentle" with me because I had been given a really difficult time at school.

If a mother is not up to abiding by the school rules or complying with whatever her daughters are taught, she has no business sending there.

An even stronger point is molding the child's perception of her teacher. If mommy contradicts the teacher in some areas, how am I supposed to know when to listen to the teacher, and when not to? Do I now have to verify everything I am taught to see if mommy agrees or disagrees with it?

The OP is obviously part of the very right wing hashkafah groups, and I am sure that the last thing she wants is a daughter who questions authority, and that is exactly what behaviors like this lead to.
Which, of course, I personally don't have a problem with. Can the OP say the same?
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Maya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 10:15 pm
I guess we have to wait to hear from the OP what her daughter is being taught, and why she gave in with the pajamas but is hesitating now.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:02 pm
Maya wrote:
My mother didn't want me to abide by the school rules when I was on her watch, during the time I spent out of school. Sometimes the teachers saw me on the street or in stores. As a result, I was labeled the "modern one" all through high school, and the teachers kept a constant watch on me and picked on me, often for really no good reason. I could write a book about those three years of hell. It was such a "famous" thing that my husband's chosson teacher, who had a few sisters teaching there at the time, told my husband before we got married to "be gentle" with me because I had been given a really difficult time at school.

If a mother is not up to abiding by the school rules or complying with whatever her daughters are taught, she has no business sending there.

An even stronger point is molding the child's perception of her teacher. If mommy contradicts the teacher in some areas, how am I supposed to know when to listen to the teacher, and when not to? Do I now have to verify everything I am taught to see if mommy agrees or disagrees with it?

The OP is obviously part of the very right wing hashkafah groups, and I am sure that the last thing she wants is a daughter who questions authority, and that is exactly what behaviors like this lead to.
Which, of course, I personally don't have a problem with. Can the OP say the same?


I just want to point out that this is some crazy *** ****.

Also, that the above is a problem of the school not of the child being able to understand nuances.

If a 4 year old does not yet understand that some people are religious in different ways, four is a very good age to start teaching that. Unless you send your kid to a school that doesn't tolerate any differences. In which case, you're going to have to conform or send your kid elsewhere.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:18 pm
amother wrote:
Yes, but pajama pants are perfectly okay, even in very RW circles - don't know about chassidish, but even in really yeshivish families the girls and women wear pajama pants.


Outside the bedroom? Not in my right wing yeshivishe family, and not anyone else in my circle. I think we're pretty typical Lakewood/kollel/yeshivishe. In the bedroom, sure, but from when my girls were little, they were taught to put on a robe (or a "pajama skirt" which is basically a slinky skirt you can throw on over your PJ pants) if you leave your room. And my daughters were taught at about age 5 that you have to wear socks in the house. That's not only a chassidish thing.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:25 pm
Good lord...
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amother
Pewter


 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:25 pm
debsey wrote:
Outside the bedroom? Not in my right wing yeshivishe family, and not anyone else in my circle. I think we're pretty typical Lakewood/kollel/yeshivishe. In the bedroom, sure, but from when my girls were little, they were taught to put on a robe (or a "pajama skirt" which is basically a slinky skirt you can throw on over your PJ pants) if you leave your room. And my daughters were taught at about age 5 that you have to wear socks in the house. That's not only a chassidish thing.


I'm Yeshivish not RW and my girls walk around in PJ's. My brother is RW Yeshivish and his DD's walk in PJ.

I don't let legging unless they are wearing a long tunic as I that is prust. We don't have to wear socks in the house but generally the girls do as they don't feel the need to take them off.

I see plenty of 5,6,7 year old girls wearing bobby socks in Lakewood when they are out of school.
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:29 pm
Little kids are very literal, and they don't like being different. That's why it's best to talk them through things like this.

My five year old came home from playgroup and was upset because "Malky said you aren't a yid because her Mommy says that ladies who wear long sheitels aren't tzanua." (I had come to a class play wearing a sheitel that I - and most of the other mothers in the class - consider perfectly tznius, but I had no trouble guessing which lady there had been Malky's mommy)

Now, I was dressed exactly like most of the other mothers in the class, and my daughter still was upset. Her Morah is teaching her all about how important it is to be tzanua, and now Malky is saying her Mommy is not tzanua? Of course she's confused.

I just had to explain - Malky's Mommy has a rav that says long sheitels are not tzanua, so she wears a very short sheitel. Our Rav says that a longer sheitel IS tzanua, that's why all the ladies in our shul and on our block have sheitels like mine. (The cute thing is that my sheitels are barely shoulder length, but that's a separate issue.) My daughter had no trouble understanding and accepting that explanation.

I didn't vilify Malky's Mommy (or Malky), although I had some less-than-complimentary thoughts about them, I just explained the concept of different standards in language a five year old understands. End of story.

BUT, if you're in a situation like Maya is describing, you save yourself a lot of heartache by just sending your child to a school that reflects your values. Otherwise, your kid pays the price for whatever your private issues are, and that's not fair to a child. Kids want to feel like they belong, and it's unfair to deprive them of that!
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debsey




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:32 pm
amother wrote:
I'm Yeshivish not RW and my girls walk around in PJ's. My brother is RW Yeshivish and his DD's walk in PJ.

I don't let legging unless they are wearing a long tunic as I that is prust. We don't have to wear socks in the house but generally the girls do as they don't feel the need to take them off.

I see plenty of 5,6,7 year old girls wearing bobby socks in Lakewood when they are out of school.


I have teenage sons, so I probably am more on top of this than most are. But I know my girls were taught this in school.

Lakewood is hardly a unified community! There are all sorts of standards here. There's a reason Brenda's is opening a branch in Jackson. Plenty of people in Lakewood who don't identify as yeshivish at all. You won't see a girl who attends a school like Bnos Melech or Bais Rivka Rochel or the like wearing bobby socks past age 4. Those are the more RW yeshivish type schools.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 05 2016, 11:46 pm
I asked in the other thread but why the emphasis on teenage sons? Would they get turned on by their own sister or mothers hair feet or pajama pants? I don't understand this concern.
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Notsobusy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 06 2016, 12:10 am
dancingqueen wrote:
I asked in the other thread but why the emphasis on teenage sons? Would they get turned on by their own sister or mothers hair feet or pajama pants? I don't understand this concern.


Not everything with tznius has to do with getting turned on. I won't stand in front of my sister in my underwear, although I know some people who will do that, not because I think she'll get turned on, but because I don't feel it's appropriate. I take my babies in the bathroom with me, but I stop when they are old enough to understand, I don't think they'll get turned on, it's not appropriate.

Some of us feel that there's a difference between being untznius in front of our sons and in front of our daughters. It's fine if you don't have that sensitivity, but don't try to turn it into a fear of "turning on" our own sons by them seeing our feet.

FTR my dd's will walk around my house in pajama pants, short sleeves and no socks in front of their brothers. I don't wear pajama pants, not because of tznius, I'm more comfortable in nightgowns, and as long as it's not too revealing I will walk around like that. I have no problem walking around without socks in my house. I did start being careful to cover my hair in front of my sons when the oldest turned Bar Mitzvah.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 06 2016, 1:20 am
amother wrote:
I think I will explain it to her. thanks Imasinger and Debsey for putting it so well and providing an outline.

thing about schools is that none can be a perfect match. they will either be more to the right and more to the left. I can't blame the school every time there's a discrepancy, and I definitely cannot switch schools every time. rather, it's up to me to balance our personal life and school/yeshiva life. thanks ladies for the perspective.
I disagree. I think a school, where your child will be most of their waking hours, has to be more similar than not to your own hashkafa.
That you are saying it is either more to the right or more to the left sounds like you should be finding a better fit school.
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