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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 6:23 pm
fmt4 wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.b67ba14a856a
Please read this article. It is not so clear cut.


Seems very clear cut to me. It says that since January 1 2015 cops have shot around twice as many white people then black people. The part that might be confusing is that since there are around 5x as many whites it would appear that blacks are getting killed by cops at a higher rate since its only 2x as many whites killed then blacks. What needs to be considered is that in practically all these fatalities, it was a police officer responding to a possible crime in progress. The key point is that those numbers are even. Meaning cops are responding to possible crimes in progress equally in terms of blacks and whites even though there are 5x as many whites. And in those equal amount of responses whites have been killed twice as many times as blacks. If anything it would appear that cops are racist against white people. Maybe its time to start a white lives matter movement.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 8:43 pm
sushilover wrote:
\

Here's the deal. I've said this before and I'll say it again. If the BLM movement was primarily about non lethal violence, I'd do my research and if the evidence clearly pointed to racism as the cause, I'd support them.
But BLM is primarily about pushing the narrative that blacks are being slaughtered by cops in America. POliticians and the press are buying it hook line and sinker., even though the evidence does NOT support that.

(Sadly, young black men are being slaughtered, though. By other black men. And somehow me saying this FACT makes me a racist according to some people. )


Okay. So you disagree with BLM. Fine. But you did do the research, right? And it did show that racism is the cause of nonlethal violence, right? That's the entire point of the article you posted on page 12.

So what are you doing about it? What are you doing about this dangerous racism that you discovered?

Other than critiquing people whom you think are doing it wrong, exaggerating and protesting too much and too loudly?
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 9:48 pm
marina wrote:
Okay. So you disagree with BLM. Fine. But you did do the research, right? And it did show that racism is the cause of nonlethal violence, right? That's the entire point of the article you posted on page 12.


No, it showed that race correlated with nonlethal violence. We would need more research to find the actual cause.

What about the uncomfortable statistic according to a DoJ report that black cops were 3 times as likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene? Do I jump to the conclusion that black people are more trigger-happy? No. I would need more research to determine the actual cause.

marina wrote:
So what are you doing about it? What are you doing about this dangerous racism that you discovered?

Other than critiquing people whom you think are doing it wrong, exaggerating and protesting too much and too loudly?


I am critiquing people who are lying to the public, not merely "protesting too loudly". They say black people are being killed by cops. False.

Let's look at the WP police shooting database of 2015:
990 people killed by police
258 were black
Of those: 36 were unarmed black men
( 31 unarmed white men)

At the same time, in 2015 over 5,000 black people were killed by members of their own race.

What is more dangerous I ask you?
What should we do about police brutality and our murder rate in general? Let's work on ways to lower crime in high crime areas. Vote for people who will actually change things instead of people busy pandering to BLM and lying about how racist all of us Americans are.
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Chana Miriam S




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 10:24 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
It's not surprising at all....When you consider that on average cops kill double the amount of white people than black people each year. You might say that of course they do, there are 5 times as many whites than blacks. But since blacks make up approximately half the crime statistics, even though they are only 13%, there really should be an equal number of whites and blacks killed by police each year. Maybe cops are racist against white people?


This is the most idiotic statistic in the whole argument. Everywhere I have seen this statistic it is mitigated by the fact that most of the white people killed are either armed or attempt to attack the officers.

BIG difference from being gunned down innocently while getting your wallet out
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 10:36 pm
andrea levy wrote:
This is the most idiotic statistic in the whole argument. Everywhere I have seen this statistic it is mitigated by the fact that most of the white people killed are either armed or attempt to attack the officers.

BIG difference from being gunned down innocently while getting your wallet out



Are you suggesting that MOST of the black people killed by cops are unarmed and not imposing any threat to the cop? Cmon, your not serious.
By the way, since this thread started 5 days ago, approximately 55 innocent black people have been murdered by other blacks.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 10:53 pm
andrea levy wrote:
This is the most idiotic statistic in the whole argument. Everywhere I have seen this statistic it is mitigated by the fact that most of the white people killed are either armed or attempt to attack the officers.

BIG difference from being gunned down innocently while getting your wallet out


Untrue
Most white AND black people killed were armed or attacking

Again: In 2015 , 36 unarmed black men were killed by cops
31 unarmed white men were killed by cops

at least five of the black unarmed victims tried to grab the officer's gun, at least two were shot by stray bullets not aimed at them, some victims were shot by an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the cops
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 12 2016, 11:26 pm
No one responded to this video, so I'll repost. Shoshanim and sushilover, here are a bunch of NYPD officers staying they were told to target minorities. Are you claiming that their statements are false? If so, please explain how you know better than the officers who were actually serving in the force:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/inve......html

Additionally, here are more statistics for those of you who love numbers showing that 83% of people stopped in NY (ETA for stop and frisk) were black or Latino. Over 90% of those stopped were innocent. Please explain why 8 innocent black and Latino people were stopped for each white person stopped.

http://www.nyclu.org/content/s.....-data
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 12:06 am
WhatFor wrote:
No one responded to this video, so I'll repost. Shoshanim and sushilover, here are a bunch of NYPD officers staying they were told to target minorities. Are you claiming that their statements are false? If so, please explain how you know better than the officers who were actually serving in the force:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/inve......html


The officers claim they have proof that they were specifically told to target minorities to fill their quotas. I'd like to see the proof. Until then, it's just allegations.

WhatFor wrote:
Additionally, here are more statistics for those of you who love numbers showing that 83% of people stopped in NY (ETA for stop and frisk) were black or Latino. Over 90% of those stopped were innocent. Please explain why 8 innocent black and Latino people were stopped for each white person stopped.

http://www.nyclu.org/content/s.....-data


Please don't make me tell you the statistics about crime in New York... It kills me a little bit inside every time I see this number...
sigh... Here's the cold, hard, soul numbing truth (I'm cringing as I type this ) blacks and Hispanics commit 98% of all shootings in NYC. So the 83% number for stop and frisk, actually show cops being significantly biased toward whites. Whites commit 2% of all shootings, and yet were stopped 17% of the time.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 12:24 am
sushilover wrote:
The officers claim they have proof that they were specifically told to target minorities to fill their quotas. I'd like to see the proof. Until then, it's just allegations.....


Here. Here you go. It was played in court.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03.....t=pay

http://www.nydailynews.com/new.....95665



sushilover wrote:
Please don't make me tell you the statistics about crime in New York... It kills me a little bit inside every time I see this number...
sigh... Here's the cold, hard, soul numbing truth (I'm cringing as I type this ) blacks and Hispanics commit 98% of all shootings in NYC. So the 83% number for stop and frisk, actually show cops being significantly biased toward whites. Whites commit 2% of all shootings, and yet were stopped 17% of the time.


I haven't looked at the statistics on shootings, so I won't answer to that, but just to be sure I understand what you are saying: If one race is over-represented in committing a certain crime, then it would be okay for governments in the US (or government agents) to subject individual people of that race to extra scrutiny regarding that crime, whether or not they otherwise have reason to believe that said individual committed such a crime?
For example, just as a far-fetched hypothetical that has nothing to do with any race in reality, suppose one race was more likely to commit white-collar crimes, and say, idk, lie on their tax returns or screw people out of millions of dollars in ponzi schemes. Per your analysis, would it be okay for the IRS to put tax filings for people whose names sound like they might of that race into a special audit bit and submit those people's tax returns to an extra layer of review? Do you think that could conceivably raise any constitutional issue or totally not?
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 2:50 am
sushilover wrote:
I am critiquing people who are lying to the public, not merely "protesting too loudly". They say black people are being killed by cops. False.

Let's look at the WP police shooting database of 2015:
990 people killed by police
258 were black
Of those: 36 were unarmed black men
( 31 unarmed white men)

At the same time, in 2015 over 5,000 black people were killed by members of their own race.

What is more dangerous I ask you?
What should we do about police brutality and our murder rate in general? Let's work on ways to lower crime in high crime areas. Vote for people who will actually change things instead of people busy pandering to BLM and lying about how racist all of us Americans are.


I already explained twice in this thread why government agents killing or harming a tiny percent of citizens due to racism is much much much worse and more dangerous than many more citizens harming each other.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 6:51 am
WhatFor wrote:
I haven't looked at the statistics on shootings, so I won't answer to that, but just to be sure I understand what you are saying: If one race is over-represented in committing a certain crime, then it would be okay for governments in the US (or government agents) to subject individual people of that race to extra scrutiny regarding that crime, whether or not they otherwise have reason to believe that said individual committed such a crime?



I'm not as much of a fan of racial profiling as I am a fan of behavior profiling. Cops generally used stop and frisk when they saw suspicious behavior. The fact that most of the people stopped were minorities is only logical when most violent crime in the city are committed by minorities and in areas with a high minority population.
To put it in another way: suppose 80% of all crime was committed by young men ages 15-30. I would expect any and all preventative measures to target this age group at least somewhere in range of 80% of the time. Even if this demographic only makes up , say 20% of the population.
If females ages 60+ commit only 1% of crime, yet make up 15% of the population, I would consider it scandalous if they were targeted anywhere close to 15% of the time when it came to preventative measures.

The above is obviously just hypothetical numbers, but I hope I made my point clear. Preventative measures should target demographics in about the same rate as the crimes that are being prevented.

(for the record: the practice is actually stop, question, frisk. Only half of the people stopped are actually frisked)

WhatFor wrote:
For example, just as a far-fetched hypothetical that has nothing to do with any race in reality, suppose one race was more likely to commit white-collar crimes, and say, idk, lie on their tax returns or screw people out of millions of dollars in ponzi schemes. Per your analysis, would it be okay for the IRS to put tax filings for people whose names sound like they might of that race into a special audit bit and submit those people's tax returns to an extra layer of review? Do you think that could conceivably raise any constitutional issue or totally not?


If the numbers in your hypothetical situation clearly show a pattern, then yes. I would think it would be only logical.
If, say, Jews constitute 2% of the American population, yet more than 60% of all tax fraud are committed by Jews, I would definitely understand if we were audited 60% of the time. That would be a cold comfort for the thousands of innocent Jews who would have to go through the pain and hassle of an audit, but it would probably lead to a decrease in tax fraud.

There is no denying that stop and frisk helped lead to a decrease in shootings in NYC. The NYT reported that in 2015 stop and frisk decreased by 94% and for the first time in about 20 years, shootings in the city have been rising.
Stop and frisk works. Yes, I'm sure that's a cold comfort to thousands of innocent people who had to go through pain and hassle of being questioned and sometimes even frisked. But it doesn't mean the NYPD are racist.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 6:56 am
regarding the NYT link showing proof that cops were encouraged to target minorities:
I would consider it a grave miscarriage of justice if the recordings discussed in the article were used as proof of racism. It may, by a stretch of the imagination, be used as proof of a quota.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 7:00 am
WhatFor wrote:
I haven't looked at the statistics on shootings, so I won't answer to that, but just to be sure I understand what you are saying: If one race is over-represented in committing a certain crime, then it would be okay for governments in the US (or government agents) to subject individual people of that race to extra scrutiny regarding that crime, whether or not they otherwise have reason to believe that said individual committed such a crime?
For example, just as a far-fetched hypothetical that has nothing to do with any race in reality, suppose one race was more likely to commit white-collar crimes, and say, idk, lie on their tax returns or screw people out of millions of dollars in ponzi schemes. Per your analysis, would it be okay for the IRS to put tax filings for people whose names sound like they might of that race into a special audit bit and submit those people's tax returns to an extra layer of review? Do you think that could conceivably raise any constitutional issue or totally not?



Well heck YES! As stated before, Blacks are responsible for assaults, rapes, and murders at a wildly disproportionate rate to their actual percentage of the population. Do you really say with a straight face that you don't think it's wise to distribute police man power in areas that are the most dangerous? Marina brought up the issue of jews more likely to be involved in white collar crime so they deserve more scrutiny. First of all can someone show me a statistic for a jewish neighborhood that is riddled with white collar crime the way some black neighborhoods are riddled with crime? And secondly, I suppose jews are targeted more by the IRS since they audit returns of high income people at a significantly higher rate than lower income people. And guess what? IT MAKES SENSE AND THEY SHOULD. Do you think that in some of these high crime, minority areas the blacks are complaining that the IRS is auditing them? Have you ever heard rich people say, why doesn't the IRS audit low income black people? You never hear that because it's ridiculous but it's basically the argument your making now. By the way around 93% of stop and frisk involves males and only 7% female. According to you cops are se xist. They clearly have it out for men. Um no, the men are committing 95% of the violent crimes. It seems if you were in charge the cops would be up in the bungalow colony frisking the chasidish ladies in equal numbers that they are frisking in high crime areas.

Hashem yerachem.


Last edited by shoshanim999 on Wed, Jul 13 2016, 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 7:12 am
marina wrote:
I already explained twice in this thread why government agents killing or harming a tiny percent of citizens due to racism is much much much worse and more dangerous than many more citizens harming each other.


Ok, I'll give you that. (Even though the killings of young black men pains me greatly and I'd rather focus on efforts that would save more lives)

But again, there is no evidence that cops are unjustifiably killing blacks at a higher rate than whites.

Research conducted at Washington State University show that officers in simulation tests were actually less likely than to shoot at blacks than whites.

The latest Harvard study by Roland Fryer that I keep on mentioning may show evidence for racial bias for use of force alone. But when it comes to firing a weapon, including a taser, there is no evidence at all.

(By the way, I keep on bringing up this study because it is so comprehensive and Fryer incorporated so many variables that other studies leave out. He really looked at each shooting on a case by case basis.)

The NYT reports that Fryer said, " The finding of no racial discrimination in police shootings was the most surprising result of my career. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces."
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 7:38 am
I just went onto the BLM website.
Their guiding principles state:

BLM is an ideological and political intervention in a world where black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks' contribution to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.


I bolded the parts that are proven falsehoods. I have no problem supporting the rest Very Happy
BLM is clearly based on lies. Why has America just blindly accepted their narrative???
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 3:30 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
Well heck YES! As stated before, Blacks are responsible for assaults, rapes, and murders at a wildly disproportionate rate to their actual percentage of the population. Do you really say with a straight face that you don't think it's wise to distribute police man power in areas that are the most dangerous? Marina brought up the issue of jews more likely to be involved in white collar crime so they deserve more scrutiny. First of all can someone show me a statistic for a jewish neighborhood that is riddled with white collar crime the way some black neighborhoods are riddled with crime? And secondly, I suppose jews are targeted more by the IRS since they audit returns of high income people at a significantly higher rate than lower income people. And guess what? IT MAKES SENSE AND THEY SHOULD. Do you think that in some of these high crime, minority areas the blacks are complaining that the IRS is auditing them? Have you ever heard rich people say, why doesn't the IRS audit low income black people? You never hear that because it's ridiculous but it's basically the argument your making now. By the way around 93% of stop and frisk involves males and only 7% female. According to you cops are se xist. They clearly have it out for men. Um no, the men are committing 95% of the violent crimes. It seems if you were in charge the cops would be up in the bungalow colony frisking the chasidish ladies in equal numbers that they are frisking in high crime areas.

Hashem yerachem.


I see. So your argument is not that racial targeting doesn't happen, your argument is that it happens and it's justified.
Regardless of your own opinion of this, targeting any individual on account of their race is illegal and a violation of basic constitutional rights. If 95% of all blue people were committing a certain crime, a government agent would not be allowed to target an individual for further investigation solely because he or she is blue.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 3:37 pm
sushilover wrote:
I just went onto the BLM website.
Their guiding principles state:

BLM is an ideological and political intervention in a world where black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks' contribution to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.


I bolded the parts that are proven falsehoods. I have no problem supporting the rest Very Happy
BLM is clearly based on lies. Why has America just blindly accepted their narrative???


You saying they're proven falsehoods doesn't mean they're falsehoods.
I provided you with evidence where police officers started under oath that black people were targeted. In courts, this is considered valid evidence. You just decided to ignore this.
I showed you data that black and Latino people are targeted and you said, yes but it's fine.
After Ferguson, the DOJ shut down some state agency practices that were found to target minorities and violate their constitutional rights.
The data and evidence (only some of which had been presented to you) is out there, if you're interested in the truth.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 3:51 pm
WhatFor wrote:
I see. So your argument is not that racial targeting doesn't happen, your argument is that it happens and it's justified.
Regardless of your own opinion of this, targeting any individual on account of their race is illegal and a violation of basic constitutional rights. If 95% of all blue people were committing a certain crime, a government agent would not be allowed to target an individual for further investigation solely because he or she is blue.



I applaud your attempt at decency and fairness, but it is so far removed from practical reality that it's scary. With your reasoning cops should be frisking woman in equal numbers as they are frisking men even though the men are committing 95% of the crimes. How about the elderly? Should cops frisk people over 80 who commit less than 1% of violent crimes in equal proportion that they frisk young males? Should law enforcement devote an equal amount of man power to neighborhoods that have virtually no violent crime at all as with neighborhoods that have shootings everyday? Please answer yes or no.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 5:37 pm
WhatFor wrote:
You saying they're proven falsehoods doesn't mean they're falsehoods.

I showed several studies proving that there is no racial disparity in cop killings.

WhatFor wrote:
I provided you with evidence where police officers started under oath that black people were targeted. In courts, this is considered valid evidence. You just decided to ignore this.


I explained that I read the article and the transcript of the recordings. There is no proof that cops were encouraged to racially profile minorities. They were encouraged to make "quality stops" and not waste time stopping old men illegally playing chess on public property.

WhatFor wrote:
I showed you data that black and Latino people are targeted and you said, yes but it's fine.
After Ferguson, the DOJ shut down some state agency practices that were found to target minorities and violate their constitutional rights.
The data and evidence (only some of which had been presented to you) is out there, if you're interested in the truth.


To prove that cops are stopping "too many" members of a group, you need to know the rate of lawbreaking of that group. Only if the rate of stops or arrests greatly exceeds the rate of criminal behavior should our suspicions be raised.
I showed you the percentage of minorities that cops stopped in NYC was significantly less than the percentage of shootings committed by minorities.
Additionally, the fact that a large percentage of the stops were minorities does not automatically mean that racial profiling was going on. Behavior profiling and the fact that there is fortunately a greater amount of police activity in areas with more minorities- are more logical explanations.

In Furgeson: there were allegations of speed traps and cops looking the other way when it came to their own family and friends. Bad stuff.
But then the DoJ had to bring race into the picture by using the fact that even though African Americans make up 67% of the population, they made up between 89- 95% of certain charges.
Again; The DoJ did not show that the charges exceeded the percentage of African Americans that committed the crimes. Only that the percentage of charges do not match the population. That is not evidence of racism

In US v Armstrong the Supreme court ruled that disparity in conviction rates is not unconstitutional in the absence of data that similarly situated defendants of anther race were disparately prosecuted.
You have to prove racism. You can't just say that because more black people are charged that proves the cops and legal system are corrupt. It may just be, and data has proved this, that blacks simply commit more of the crimes.

There have been several times that people have set out to prove racial disparity and I have yet to see a study that proved that minorities are charged at a greater rate than they commit crimes. In fact I have found studies that proved the opposite.

Shall I give you some examples of the studies? I would do so gladly (not just tell you to "educate yourself". I'll be happy to educate you if you'd like)
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 13 2016, 5:53 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
I applaud your attempt at decency and fairness, but it is so far removed from practical reality that it's scary. With your reasoning cops should be frisking woman in equal numbers as they are frisking men even though the men are committing 95% of the crimes. How about the elderly? Should cops frisk people over 80 who commit less than 1% of violent crimes in equal proportion that they frisk young males? Should law enforcement devote an equal amount of man power to neighborhoods that have virtually no violent crime at all as with neighborhoods that have shootings everyday? Please answer yes or no.


They should be targeting individuals who raise their suspicion.

Not "blue people because blue people commit most of the crimes."

Do you get the difference?
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